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Liberation MUSH
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@Roz said in Liberation MUSH:
And while other members of the team often had life events or professional responsibilities and live in different timezones, he was pretty much available 24/7.
has this level of involvement ever not been an enormous red flag?
I understand there are people whose life circumstances mean their social outlets are limited, but like…nearly all the people who are permanently online in the hobby have been, in my experience, deeply uncomfortable to interact with. they almost always just get incredibly weird and emotionally invested to a very unhealthy degree.
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@Roz said in Liberation MUSH:
@SuspectHound okay everyone keeps talking about how polk is banned from ALL THE GAMES EVER. what games has he actually been banned from??? i think i only coexisted with him on one game that he’s been gone from for years
I saw him banned from a game called Modern Nights. He was a mage PC, had a huge public meltdown. That was right around the time Liberation was just going to open.
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@Pan Recently was banned from COH too from what I heard from someone who was there.
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@Wizz said in Liberation MUSH:
@Roz said in Liberation MUSH:
And while other members of the team often had life events or professional responsibilities and live in different timezones, he was pretty much available 24/7.
has this level of involvement ever not been an enormous red flag?
I understand there are people whose life circumstances mean their social outlets are limited, but like…nearly all the people who are permanently online in the hobby have been, in my experience, deeply uncomfortable to interact with. they almost always just get incredibly weird and emotionally invested to a very unhealthy degree.
Even if your circumstances limit your social outlets, might I suggest still logging off often enough to get a break from being Online All The Time. It is amazing how some time to decompress from the assault of all the Online Things does amazing to ground yourself and your attitude.
Otherwise, you get people like Polk who are like ‘yeah it’s totally reasonable to try to hold a game hostage so that some online person thousands of miles away will say on a public channel that she trusts me’. Which-- you know.
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@Meg Reading the logs of the goings-on for the Public channel alone, I kept thinking: “this is surely all a sign of a stable genius” and getting more and more amused/afraid/concerned.
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@Roz said in Liberation MUSH:
- Up to now, he had chiefly been someone who could save me a little time (which adds up considerably) by managing the wiki and website updates. Polk’s social IQ problems were not unknown. It’s why he only became Mage Director when Tris stepped down and there was no one else. And it’s why he was removed as Mage Director a year ago, and was relieved of any player-facing responsibilities as sub-director a while after that. He never did anything unethical (as a Director anyways) - but he could not deal effectively with people.
Well, that’s just not true. He very much did unethical things as Director.
Sundance(sun) pages: There’s two elements to this. The first element is 1) Polk should absolutely not have disapproved you on his own initiative. He knew that the moment he did it, and he already apologized to me in page about it, before I sat down. I had him immediately re-approve you, since I’m the only one who can carry out OOC discipline here.
I won’t say she’s just flat out lying. Maybe she just forgot, but he was definitely unethical as Director. Maybe she didn’t consider that situation because, in her view, she fixed it? (She didn’t actually fix it, she just reversed his decision, which still left a host of problems. Not the same thing as fixing it.)
But…
If she did just forget, I gotta tell ya, it sucks to have been so severely fucked over by Polk in the exact same temper tantrum, table flipping way and then forgotten about by Sundance like you never existed and didn’t spend months of your life researching, writing, and on a few occasions driving through LA in order to desc half of her ginormous, unnecessarily large grid to give her 200+ grid spaces and builds so that as many spaces and builds as possible were as accurate to the actual RL locations as they could be, all the way down to neighborhood blocks that had no notable features except for how much graffiti and trash were visible or how many and what types of cars were parked on the street. Granted, I did all of that willing and no one asked me to do the extras, but it is too much to expect that you and the reason you left the game not be forgotten about? Apparently, that might be.
So… hopefully it wasn’t the latter. That would blow.
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@Wizz said in Liberation MUSH:
@Roz said in Liberation MUSH:
And while other members of the team often had life events or professional responsibilities and live in different timezones, he was pretty much available 24/7.
has this level of involvement ever not been an enormous red flag?
I understand there are people whose life circumstances mean their social outlets are limited, but like…nearly all the people who are permanently online in the hobby have been, in my experience, deeply uncomfortable to interact with. they almost always just get incredibly weird and emotionally invested to a very unhealthy degree.
That was the first thing I said to myself when reading this. 24/7 availability is NOT a good thing. Even if someone is not working or involved with family for whatever reasons, it suggests that they have put far too many psychological eggs in one hobby basket and that is going to end badly somewhere down the line.
Look for people to work with who have boundaries and other things in their lives they value. People who can make a commitment and keep it? Sure. But also people who know how to balance their time and investment.
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@Warma-Sheen My favorite part of the lead up to this was when Sun allegedly investigated all the rps of 8 characters with Polk/Ned/Nash going back 15 months…in an hour. “We have investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing.”
And yet the thing I warned her about happened. It’s almost like shielding abusers might be biting her in the ass.
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@Pyrephox said in Liberation MUSH:
24/7 availability is NOT a good thing
Definitely not for a game. Some RL things/people? Absolutely, available 24/7 for the kids for instance - but games, in the grand scheme and acknowledging every positive they can provide, do not matter.
ETA: I think that’s a thing some folks, myself included, need reminding of: This is a hobby. Not a job, not a family (though it can be the origin of deep and abiding relationships, of course). They’re games. Take a break, rest, do anything else for a bit.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
BE AN ADULT -
@Warma-Sheen said in Liberation MUSH:
spend months of your life researching, writing, and on a few occasions driving through LA in order to desc half of her ginormous, unnecessarily large grid to give her 200+ grid spaces and builds so that as many spaces and builds as possible were as accurate to the actual RL locations as they could be, all the way down to neighborhood blocks that had no notable features except for how much graffiti and trash were visible or how many and what types of cars were parked on the street.
…not to be dismissive of an upsetting experience with an unstable individual…
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@Pavel said in Liberation MUSH:
@Pyrephox said in Liberation MUSH:
24/7 availability is NOT a good thing
Absolutely, available 24/7 for the kids for instance -
Sleep when the baby sleeps.
Eat when the baby eats.
Cry when the baby cries.
Study when the baby studies.
Write on your dissertation when the baby writes on his dissertation. -
@Pavel I go back and forth on “it’s a just game,” just because so many times the phrase is used to diminish/ignore real issues, but I think you got it just right here.
If one’s choices are, “Hurt people who trust me,” or “Log off until I cool down,” really only one of those responses is right, and it’s right every time.
Sun thought I was upset at Polk’s bigotry. I had noticed it, but it wasn’t why I tried to talk to her about him. I told her expressly I was not interested in that side of the talk; that I had identified complex patterns of deceit and recklessness; that several other players (9 by the end) had given me proofs, some receipts. The end result was a ban for me and my partner. 8 other folks left the game within a week of that.
That’s why I have the signature I do. That’s why I laughed my ass off when Polk tried to throw in with me. Nah, bake on the pavement, wormie.
Sun, if you see this, even if you replace Polk, Wolfe, Mizha, all the troublemakers, the problem is your myopia, your inflexibility and your inability to believe you’re making a mistake until it’s you, not others, paying the price. Your “only complain about harassment/abuse/etc to me” rule was the greatest shield a serial abuser could hope for. You don’t trust us, and without trust nothing will get better.
Got what you wanted, lost what you had.
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@Muscle-Car said in Liberation MUSH:
the phrase is used to diminish/ignore real issues
Oh, it absolutely is; you’re right. It’s like sports, for lack of a better metaphor. The game itself doesn’t really matter, but if you’ve got a player beating the stuffing out of their partner, that’s still a problem that needs to be solved.
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Yeesh. Feel sorry for people barebacking the Lib sites/servers right now.
Got what you wanted, lost what you had.
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@Muscle-Car We’re aware of this and working on getting the website and wiki back up. I’d caution folks against logging on while we spin this website back up.
I don’t want to say “wrap it up”, but you said “barebacking” and it’s very tempting to.
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@Wizz said in Liberation MUSH:
@Warma-Sheen said in Liberation MUSH:
spend months of your life researching, writing, and on a few occasions driving through LA in order to desc half of her ginormous, unnecessarily large grid to give her 200+ grid spaces and builds so that as many spaces and builds as possible were as accurate to the actual RL locations as they could be, all the way down to neighborhood blocks that had no notable features except for how much graffiti and trash were visible or how many and what types of cars were parked on the street.
…not to be dismissive of an upsetting experience with an unstable individual…
It gave me something to do to fill my time at a time when I needed to keep myself occupied and my brain focused on stuff that was not RL. And I like learning about cities. I had desced out a few cities for games before, but that was from looking and reading about stuff online. LA was one close enough that I could actually be there and I knew from other games that if a game I played on was set in LA, that would be something I’d do. Learning the history of places is one thing, but being able to see where it happened and then write about it and have others read about it, I enjoyed. I also liked the idea of someone playing at a place in the game and then being there one day and be like ‘Oh, wow I remember this from X game and this is actually kinda what I pictured from the description when I was playing’. And there were a few people who messaged me who lived or had lived in parts of LA and did tell me that I had gotten an area they knew down really well. That was cool.
Obviously, if I had known how everything would have turned out for me, I probably wouldn’t have put quite as much effort into it, but truthfully, I still would have done most of it, because I got as much out of it as the game did. Maybe more. I didn’t get or ask for anything tangible in exchange for it, like xp or favors, but I did think a little consideration from Sundance would be appreciated.
Like, just don’t conveniently forget when the guy you were warned was doing shady, unethical stuff does shady, unethical stuff to me and you acknowledge that he did shady, unethical stuff… but later announce that he never did shady, unethical stuff. Yeah. That just feels crappy to be dismissed/overlooked like that. Going through it was crappy enough. To be forgotten by one of the few other people who knew what had happened sucks. That consideration would have been nice.
But realistically, I don’t think Sundance forgot about me. Or my contribution. Or why I left. I think she made a calculated choice to do what she thought would be in the best interest of the game and people’s enjoyment of it. So she just straight up lied. The end goal was to protect the experience of the people who were still there from being tainted by the question of whether they had ever been screwed over by Polk and just never known it, with perception being more important than the facts.
As other people have said, she is consistent. She’ll do what she thinks she needs to do to keep her game going. If some people/ideas/values/integrity need to be sacrificed to make that happen, then so be it. And I know that sounds harsh, but I really don’t mean it to be. Sometimes there are no good choices, but choices still have to be made. I can both recognize that and be annoyed by it.
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So I was gone for a while and all the fancy drama happens while I’m not looking?!? Guess it’s time to jump back into the trenches and cause chaos.
(It is entirely coincidence that I logged back in right after the servers switched back on. Weird coincidence, but coincidence.
… I wonder if this means sneks are open…
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@Warma-Sheen When the truth is subjective in perpetuity, as so well bulwarked by Sun’s gaslight/ignore/insult process of handling problems, then there is no value to being right. If I wanted, “Nothing is real, everything is possible,” I’d read Lavrorv. That shit ain’t cool to do OOC.
But she and Polk use the same playbook to burden and humiliate players for fur on the floor while she’s ignoring the gorilla that’s shedding.
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Liberation’s website, wiki, and game are all back online, with very little in the way of loss. Thanks for the well-wishes, everybody. What a journey!
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@Warma-Sheen said in Liberation MUSH:
But realistically, I don’t think Sundance forgot about me. Or my contribution. Or why I left. I think she made a calculated choice to do what she thought would be in the best interest of the game and people’s enjoyment of it. So she just straight up lied. The end goal was to protect the experience of the people who were still there from being tainted by the question of whether they had ever been screwed over by Polk and just never known it, with perception being more important than the facts.
As other people have said, she is consistent. She’ll do what she thinks she needs to do to keep her game going. If some people/ideas/values/integrity need to be sacrificed to make that happen, then so be it. And I know that sounds harsh, but I really don’t mean it to be. Sometimes there are no good choices, but choices still have to be made. I can both recognize that and be annoyed by it.
I’ll casually disagree. I think she lied because if people knew the true, full extent of how much shit she overlooked from him, they’d lose all respect and faith in her. I think we’ve seen over the years that most people won’t leave a game just because bad shit has happened there. Especially when the person behind it has been fired/left.
I think she’s embarrassed, and rightly so, by how much she left him get away with and how many people were abused and exploited by him so that she could keep her game running. She was an enabler and a co-participant in his exploitation of the people he fucked over, but she can’t bring herself to admit the truth: “I knew the shit he was doing and I let it happen because it was only happening to a few people at a time and keeping the game up was more important and we both knew it. So he kept doing it and I kept letting him.”
Using your case specifically, once you got booted out of the mage sphere, no one wanted anything to do with you. Not because of you, but because at that point everyone knew Polk didn’t want you there and no one wanted to be associated with you or they’d also be targeted along with you. Because everyone knew he played favorites and anyone associated with you would also get the shit end of all sticks. It didn’t matter that Sundance put you back in. You were finished. Your experience there was a dead end. And whether you stayed or not, whether Sundance put you back in the sphere or not, he got exactly what he wanted and not even Sundance could do anything about it.
@Warma-Sheen said in Liberation MUSH:
Sundance(sun) pages: There’s two elements to this. The first element is 1) Polk should absolutely not have disapproved you on his own initiative. He knew that the moment he did it, and he already apologized to me in page about it, before I sat down. I had him immediately re-approve you, since I’m the only one who can carry out OOC discipline here.
Notice how he apparently immediately apologized to her for his unethical move? Pure, predatory manipulation. But did he apologize to you? I know he did not. I doubt he’s apologized since then, cause… its Polk.
But he still got what he wanted, didn’t he? And how many people/players has he exploited/manipulated/abused like this or in other ways over the years? How many people told Sundance, who did nothing? This particular incident happened almost two years ago. She can’t say she didn’t know. She knew exactly. And she knew each and every time someone said something since then that it was true. Because she had already seen who he was and what he would do. She just didn’t care as much as she did about keeping her game open.
So, no, I disagree. I don’t think she was making hard choices. I think she was making selfish ones to protect herself and pretend like she didn’t know what was really happening. Pretend she didn’t know he was being unethical, like she would have done something if she had known. She did know. She knew full well. She just won’t own it.
