Bannings
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My favorite part of the community split is that the worst of the slut-shamers stayed behind.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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@Aria Considering ~40% of our society wants us to go back to the 1950s on pretty much everything related to sex/gender/race/any cultural issue, I feel like itās going to be a long time before all that happens.
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@Jennkryst said in Bannings:
@GF Too bad, I am also obsessed with you, Regina George style, because we are all hawt mean girls.
Out of everything the new crew of MSB has done, the taking of Mean Girls memes in vain is surely their most unforgivable crime.
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Say, changing the subject every single time their target spoke up on a channel about something. Itās not even REPORTABLE, but after 20 times of being silenced like this, itās obviously a pattern.)
That caught my eye.
This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staffās role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
ā¦ I used micro twice in two paragraphs. Ew.
But anyway, what is that line, what does it look like?
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Say, changing the subject every single time their target spoke up on a channel about something. Itās not even REPORTABLE, but after 20 times of being silenced like this, itās obviously a pattern.)
That caught my eye.
This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staffās role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
ā¦ I used micro twice in two paragraphs. Ew.
But anyway, what is that line, what does it look like?
I think the player should report. No, this by itself isnāt bannable and might not even be something youād talk to someone about right away.
Itās something Iād probably never notice if it wasnāt happening to me.
But if it was pointed out in like, hey this person has been causing me to feel pushed out by doing <insert micro aggression>, that would put me on notice and Iād be watching them a lot more closely.
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Say, changing the subject every single time their target spoke up on a channel about something. Itās not even REPORTABLE, but after 20 times of being silenced like this, itās obviously a pattern.)
That caught my eye.
This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staffās role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
Iād disagree with calling the described behavior a āpersonal peeve.ā Something that consistent would basically have to be a targeted, purposeful thing. Itās only a āpersonal peeveā in that anyone would be PEEVED at being targeted by someone purposefully trying to be a jerk to you.
In any case, I agree with @tsar: itās reportable. Not bannable, but staff can absolutely be like ādude we see what youāre doing, knock it off.ā
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Say, changing the subject every single time their target spoke up on a channel about something. Itās not even REPORTABLE, but after 20 times of being silenced like this, itās obviously a pattern.)
That caught my eye.
This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staffās role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
ā¦ I used micro twice in two paragraphs. Ew.
But anyway, what is that line, what does it look like?
I think the player should report. No, this by itself isnāt bannable and might not even be something youād talk to someone about right away.
Itās something Iād probably never notice if it wasnāt happening to me.
But if it was pointed out in like, hey this person has been causing me to feel pushed out by doing <insert micro aggression>, that would put me on notice and Iād be watching them a lot more closely.
I wouldnāt report.
Iām not saying others shouldnāt, but I will say that I, personally, wouldnāt.
I only report extremely serious offences, typically only after multiple offences, and when I know that at least one other person has had similar experiences theyāre willing to corroborate.
The way the conversationās been going on MSB, I feel more confident in this stance than I did before.
Reporting incidents always carries with it the risk of making the accuser look like a part of the problem. This is doubly true if they become known as a serial reporter, which itself only takes a track record of having reported at least one other incident.
So I save that for when I really, really need it, and feel that Iāve already reached the end of my rope. Even on games where I genuinely trust the staff, I personally feel a high level of anxiety about how my āattitudeā makes me look, and if I want to be taken seriously about serious offences, I wonāt tank my credibility on minor slights.
I donāt think itās great that people feel this way, but I know Iām not the only one who does.
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I think that is where that trust thing comes in. I think a lot of people misinterpret trust to mean āI expect that if I mention something that theyāll agree and protect me immediately.ā
For me it means that I can trust that theyāll listen without judging /me/ and that now I can put that notice in their hands abd just not worry about it and then just go on about my business.
The reason why I play on Arx is that I can trust several members of staff to be safe people to tell if something is making me uncomfortable (and other things too) and know that I can relax about it afterwards. Being able to do that with warning signs is so important. Iāve never had a major incident on Arx but I believe that I would be able to stay even if I did because of the comfort level of being listened to over the minor/not flagrant rule breaking stuff.
This is not to say I havenāt been pissy or irritable about decisions or changes or squeaky wheels or what have you. Feeling safe is never really about āthings being exactly how I wantā for me. But expressing concern or being weirded out and NOT having someone immediately jump into lecturing me about how they must be fair to the other person and am I sure Iām just not misinterpreting is so important because honestly if I didnāt expect thereād be an attempt to be fair I wouldnāt play on the game, and Iād hope theyād also extend me the benefit of the doubt that if it pinged me odd enough to report it it was because it overrode those feelings of āam I overreacting.ā
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Say, changing the subject every single time their target spoke up on a channel about something. Itās not even REPORTABLE, but after 20 times of being silenced like this, itās obviously a pattern.)
That caught my eye.
This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staffās role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
ā¦ I used micro twice in two paragraphs. Ew.
But anyway, what is that line, what does it look like?
I think the player should report. No, this by itself isnāt bannable and might not even be something youād talk to someone about right away.
Itās something Iād probably never notice if it wasnāt happening to me.
But if it was pointed out in like, hey this person has been causing me to feel pushed out by doing <insert micro aggression>, that would put me on notice and Iād be watching them a lot more closely.
I wouldnāt report.
Iām not saying others shouldnāt, but I will say that I, personally, wouldnāt.
I only report extremely serious offences, typically only after multiple offences, and when I know that at least one other person has had similar experiences theyāre willing to corroborate.
The way the conversationās been going on MSB, I feel more confident in this stance than I did before.
Reporting incidents always carries with it the risk of making the accuser look like a part of the problem. This is doubly true if they become known as a serial reporter, which itself only takes a track record of having reported at least one other incident.
So I save that for when I really, really need it, and feel that Iāve already reached the end of my rope. Even on games where I genuinely trust the staff, I personally feel a high level of anxiety about how my āattitudeā makes me look, and if I want to be taken seriously about serious offences, I wonāt tank my credibility on minor slights.
I donāt think itās great that people feel this way, but I know Iām not the only one who does.
I fully understand where youāre coming from. I will also say itās the reason Iām never surprised when two or three people pop after a banning and privately page to say they experienced the same thing.
It makes me feel terrible. I want people to feel safe and not afraid that signaling to staff is going to have them labeled a troublemaker. The only way I know how to help with that is continued patience and understanding.
Side bar, kind of since here and there in this thread and MSB weāre touching on how this relates to sexism:
Before my current job, I worked in a male dominated part of my industry. I was once hauled into the office after a shift and told to watch my tone when I spoke to another co-worker. Because his supervisor had heard me āscreamingā at him.
It didnāt matter that I had several witnesses to the opposite. That one of the witnesses was someone who didnāt like me. And that what really happened was I calmly asked him to leave my workspace after heād returned for the third time to demand I hurry up fixing something his team broke.
I was still told to watch it.
So I get it when people hold back on reporting, I really, really, sincerely do.
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Itās only a āpersonal peeveā in that anyone would be PEEVED at being targeted by someone purposefully trying to be a jerk to you.
Oh for sure. But my question wasnāt whether weāve the right to feel annoyed and frustrated - of course we do. In fact weāve the right to feelā¦ whatever we feel, whether itās justified (and it would be in this case) or not.
What I was asking is whether this is reportable. Iāll bring up a reason for it in the next paragraph of why thatās relevant, in my opinion of course.
Reporting incidents always carries with it the risk of making the accuser look like a part of the problem. This is doubly true if they become known as a serial reporter, which itself only takes a track record of having reported at least one other incident.
Thatās it. Reporting isnāt always a behavior the victim engages in. It can also be weaponized. Cherry-picking minor things, perhaps unintentional episodes, to create a certain narrative. āKestrel said something about sports on a channel that one time after I asked for RPā, āKestrel asked a question on a channel that other time after I started talking about my dayā. Even if each instance was completely coincidental a determined abuser could build up a case over time.
And now @Kestrel is the problem.
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@Kestrel is the problem.
Coincidentally, I have also marked this down as my chosen epitaph.
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It can also be weaponized
Youāre right. A player could potentially weaponize reports. Itās an ugly and murky area that every staffer should be aware of. Iām not sure what the solution is there other than a general āknow your playersā attitude from staff.
And that sure as hell doesnāt cover it all. But in my personal experience the vast majority of players are not attempting to weaponize reports. Some folks might have a more finely tuned āfuck noā button than others, but theyāre not malicious.
@KarmaBum and myself were real briefly talking yesterday about something kind of related to āknow your playersā. Basically, what a different experience it is to attempt to sanely wrangle a large group versus some of the smaller games. And like, once your number of players goes up enough itās almost impossible to know everyone.
Anyway rabble rabble
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@Arkandel Everyone knows that anything can be weaponized. Thatās where trust in staff comes in. Are they capable of hearing about discomfort without needing to crush it under āare you sure its not just in your head?ā no matter how nicely phrased? Do they care to receive tidbits and keep an eye on thing over time? If theyāre not trustworthy with stuff like that or donāt care to community manage then thatās valuable information to know so that you know its on you to walk if things edge into too much. If they are, then it makes more of an environment where people can share minor stuff that can head some problems off at the pass. Not perfectly. But thatās important info too. Not everyone will feel comfortable playing on a game where staff encourages people to speak up if something made them uncomfortable even if it doesnāt rise to the level of harassment.
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The fear of being seen as The Whiner is real. Iāve avoided reporting things that seemed non-reportable - constant and intentional passive aggressiveness, for instance - because I didnāt want to seem like a complainer who was out to get someone. Only to later find out that knowing that would have been valuable to staff.
When I started on Arx, a player pressured me to TS and then when I declined IC with reference to her sexuality he said, OOC, that maybe the right dick would fix her. I didnāt report this, because I had invited him to my room (to look at a painting we had been discussing!) so it was probably my fault and what else would I have expected. It wasnāt like he paged me out of nowhere. @sao (lovingly) bullied me into reporting and he was banned like 10 minutes later - in part because someone else had also reported him being borderline creepy but not instabannable. Would he have been banned if there wasnāt already a report about something more minor? I donāt know!
After several years, I know and trust Arx staff enough to report and let them decide what to do with it, but only because I have gotten to know them and Iām pretty sure they know I wouldnāt report maliciously. But thereās no way Iād do that immediately on a new game. Itās a tricky line to walk, for sure.
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When I started on Arx, a player pressured me to TS and then when I declined IC with reference to her sexuality he said, OOC, that maybe the right dick would fix her.
Fucking hell. The complete lack of self-awareness.
I donāt know what Iām doing. Poke at Seven Nations sevennations.aresmush.com port 2021
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Itās only a āpersonal peeveā in that anyone would be PEEVED at being targeted by someone purposefully trying to be a jerk to you.
Oh for sure. But my question wasnāt whether weāve the right to feel annoyed and frustrated - of course we do. In fact weāve the right to feelā¦ whatever we feel, whether itās justified (and it would be in this case) or not.
What I was asking is whether this is reportable. Iāll bring up a reason for it in the next paragraph of why thatās relevant, in my opinion of course.
I was answering your question, I wasnāt answering that someone has the right to feel justified. I was saying that calling the behavior described a āpeeveā makes it sound like ā idk, someone doing a thing thatās not really targeted at you, but you just find annoying. Iām saying this scenario is not a peeve; itās a purposeful, targeted behavior. Not a huge one, but if itās done so regularly and consistently, itās not an accident.
So yes, I was saying itās reportable, because the consistency of the pattern indicates that itās purposeful.
Reporting incidents always carries with it the risk of making the accuser look like a part of the problem. This is doubly true if they become known as a serial reporter, which itself only takes a track record of having reported at least one other incident.
Thatās it. Reporting isnāt always a behavior the victim engages in. It can also be weaponized. Cherry-picking minor things, perhaps unintentional episodes, to create a certain narrative. āKestrel said something about sports on a channel that one time after I asked for RPā, āKestrel asked a question on a channel that other time after I started talking about my dayā. Even if each instance was completely coincidental a determined abuser could build up a case over time.
And now @Kestrel is the problem.
The ability for something to be weaponized has no bearing on whether or not an incident is reportable. Kestrel is talking about something slightly off to the side ā that maybe something is reportable in an objective sense, but someone still may not feel comfortable reporting it. These are two different questions.
@Testament said in Bannings:
When I started on Arx, a player pressured me to TS and then when I declined IC with reference to her sexuality he said, OOC, that maybe the right dick would fix her.
Fucking hell. The complete lack of self-awareness.
Thatās not a lack of self-awareness; itās purposeful. The ugliness, the causing of discomfort, is the point.
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@Testament I mean, itās a very common male response to lesbians in RL. Iāve heard it before. But it is absolutely still super fucking gross and idiotic.
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Being able to do that with warning signs is so important. Iāve never had a major incident on Arx but I believe that I would be able to stay even if I did because of the comfort level of being listened to over the minor/not flagrant rule breaking stuff.
Nothing to do with me, but itās still really nice to see this said about a game. Any game, tbh!
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The reason I mentioned the channel behavior was specifically because itās something generally innocuous and inoffensive (talking on channel) turned into a weapon of exclusion thatās part of a long term problem that typically does not get dealt with, but absolutely chases people off games. I find it interesting that this, being a KNOWN tactic of one of the worst people in the hobby, that the validity of it even being a problem is debated.
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