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Bannings
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I for one can recall the MSB thread about DownWithOPP being on Arx wherein a bunch of different players he creeped out were able to compare notes and realize it wasn’t just a once-off thing and was actually a recurring pattern, and thus felt confident in putting in complaints on the game. Because a lot of them were in a place of “he was kind of weird but maybe it was just accidental” place of not being sure they should report.
There was also an instance someone else has remembered where someone was hopping around a lot of Ares games and being creepy on rosters and the word going around on MSB helped at least one game quickly identify him and toss him out before he’d done too much damage.
But right, of course, MSB never helped to identify bad actors.
So I’m a page behind and may end up ETA or double-posting, but let me just re: the DownwithOPP thread…
Don’t you little angel babies ever be afraid of losing the context of that thread, or at least not all of the context of that thread. DownwithOPP harassed multiple women on a game where I was staff, and repeatedly pointed out how miserable and abusive his behavior was, only to be ignored by Dropkick. (Who, hey, surprise! Also turned out to be massively toxic and have major boundary issues with multiple women.)
I will never, ever, ever let go of the fact that there were wonderful players that were driven off on my watch, that I was unable to protect, that felt unsafe on a space I helped to make. I might, might have been able to get over it and just grumble about him under my breath if he had reformed, but instead the man has proven to be a serial harasser of more than decade.
I promise you right now that I could disappear from MSB, from BMD, from my current games, from MUing in general, and I would come back to drop some stories and some identifying behavior about that creep if someone thought it would help shield people from him. I would shake a cane at our future 3D character holograms and go on a rambling old man screed about him from my nursing home. I would rise from my fucking grave to help burn that asshole’s hidden identity to the ground.
He is and will remain my Official Internet Grudge until the day he stops being such a massive piece of shit, so y’know, probably forever.
^ Actual footage of me coming back from the dead to remind everyone that DownwithOPP is the human equivalent of that massive trash island floating around the Pacific.
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@Meg I would argue the point of Watchmen is none of the characters are “good,” at least not in the sense of being aspirational figures. But yes, the cold-blooded murdering rapist is inarguably the worst of a bad lot.
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@GF i really love The Watchmen and could talk about it for days, and argue merits of what makes any of them good or bad or aspirational.
(he also didn’t technically rape anyone, that we know of. he attempted to rape sally jupiter, but then they later had consensual sex that resulted in laurie.)
but that would be a derail. sorry.
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@IoleRae Yup. I wasn’t really trying to contest @Solstice’s point, just noting my own personal way of going about such things. I will note that having logs or screenshots is helpful for me as a Staffer, but I would never demand them before taking action if I thought that action was warranted based on other evidence (including eyewitness testimony).
Formerly known as Seraphim73 (he/him)
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Oh yes, of course it’s useful; having them can be super helpful (as long as we remember that that stuff can be wholesale fabricated very easily – in my personal bugbear’s case, for example, she takes a legitimate page conversation and adds or removes just a few words here and there). It’s just that it takes a lot sometimes to admit that you let somebody take advantage of you; putting it on display even to somebody trusted can be a barrier too hard to get through, especially if your conduct was shameful in any way (e.g., participating in writing smut). The bad actors we are talking about in more specific senses take very careful advantage of that.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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especially if your conduct was shameful in any way (e.g., participating in writing smut).
I really wish that we, as a society and even as a species, could just get over the fact that most of us like sex and move on. Literally every single person on this planet is here because of someone somewhere boning at various points in time.
But no. No, no. We - particularly women - must continue engaging in this ridiculous charade of pretending we’re a 1950s Elvgren pinup, perpetually wearing a surprised expression of “You put penises where?!”
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My favorite part of the community split is that the worst of the slut-shamers stayed behind.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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@Aria Considering ~40% of our society wants us to go back to the 1950s on pretty much everything related to sex/gender/race/any cultural issue, I feel like it’s going to be a long time before all that happens.
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@Jennkryst said in Bannings:
@GF Too bad, I am also obsessed with you, Regina George style, because we are all hawt mean girls.
Out of everything the new crew of MSB has done, the taking of Mean Girls memes in vain is surely their most unforgivable crime.
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Say, changing the subject every single time their target spoke up on a channel about something. It’s not even REPORTABLE, but after 20 times of being silenced like this, it’s obviously a pattern.)
That caught my eye.
This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staff’s role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
… I used micro twice in two paragraphs. Ew.
But anyway, what is that line, what does it look like?
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Say, changing the subject every single time their target spoke up on a channel about something. It’s not even REPORTABLE, but after 20 times of being silenced like this, it’s obviously a pattern.)
That caught my eye.
This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staff’s role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
… I used micro twice in two paragraphs. Ew.
But anyway, what is that line, what does it look like?
I think the player should report. No, this by itself isn’t bannable and might not even be something you’d talk to someone about right away.
It’s something I’d probably never notice if it wasn’t happening to me.
But if it was pointed out in like, hey this person has been causing me to feel pushed out by doing <insert micro aggression>, that would put me on notice and I’d be watching them a lot more closely.
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Say, changing the subject every single time their target spoke up on a channel about something. It’s not even REPORTABLE, but after 20 times of being silenced like this, it’s obviously a pattern.)
That caught my eye.
This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staff’s role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
I’d disagree with calling the described behavior a “personal peeve.” Something that consistent would basically have to be a targeted, purposeful thing. It’s only a “personal peeve” in that anyone would be PEEVED at being targeted by someone purposefully trying to be a jerk to you.
In any case, I agree with @tsar: it’s reportable. Not bannable, but staff can absolutely be like “dude we see what you’re doing, knock it off.”
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Say, changing the subject every single time their target spoke up on a channel about something. It’s not even REPORTABLE, but after 20 times of being silenced like this, it’s obviously a pattern.)
That caught my eye.
This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staff’s role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
… I used micro twice in two paragraphs. Ew.
But anyway, what is that line, what does it look like?
I think the player should report. No, this by itself isn’t bannable and might not even be something you’d talk to someone about right away.
It’s something I’d probably never notice if it wasn’t happening to me.
But if it was pointed out in like, hey this person has been causing me to feel pushed out by doing <insert micro aggression>, that would put me on notice and I’d be watching them a lot more closely.
I wouldn’t report.
I’m not saying others shouldn’t, but I will say that I, personally, wouldn’t.
I only report extremely serious offences, typically only after multiple offences, and when I know that at least one other person has had similar experiences they’re willing to corroborate.
The way the conversation’s been going on MSB, I feel more confident in this stance than I did before.
Reporting incidents always carries with it the risk of making the accuser look like a part of the problem. This is doubly true if they become known as a serial reporter, which itself only takes a track record of having reported at least one other incident.
So I save that for when I really, really need it, and feel that I’ve already reached the end of my rope. Even on games where I genuinely trust the staff, I personally feel a high level of anxiety about how my “attitude” makes me look, and if I want to be taken seriously about serious offences, I won’t tank my credibility on minor slights.
I don’t think it’s great that people feel this way, but I know I’m not the only one who does.
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I think that is where that trust thing comes in. I think a lot of people misinterpret trust to mean “I expect that if I mention something that they’ll agree and protect me immediately.”
For me it means that I can trust that they’ll listen without judging /me/ and that now I can put that notice in their hands abd just not worry about it and then just go on about my business.
The reason why I play on Arx is that I can trust several members of staff to be safe people to tell if something is making me uncomfortable (and other things too) and know that I can relax about it afterwards. Being able to do that with warning signs is so important. I’ve never had a major incident on Arx but I believe that I would be able to stay even if I did because of the comfort level of being listened to over the minor/not flagrant rule breaking stuff.
This is not to say I haven’t been pissy or irritable about decisions or changes or squeaky wheels or what have you. Feeling safe is never really about “things being exactly how I want” for me. But expressing concern or being weirded out and NOT having someone immediately jump into lecturing me about how they must be fair to the other person and am I sure I’m just not misinterpreting is so important because honestly if I didn’t expect there’d be an attempt to be fair I wouldn’t play on the game, and I’d hope they’d also extend me the benefit of the doubt that if it pinged me odd enough to report it it was because it overrode those feelings of “am I overreacting.”
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Say, changing the subject every single time their target spoke up on a channel about something. It’s not even REPORTABLE, but after 20 times of being silenced like this, it’s obviously a pattern.)
That caught my eye.
This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staff’s role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
… I used micro twice in two paragraphs. Ew.
But anyway, what is that line, what does it look like?
I think the player should report. No, this by itself isn’t bannable and might not even be something you’d talk to someone about right away.
It’s something I’d probably never notice if it wasn’t happening to me.
But if it was pointed out in like, hey this person has been causing me to feel pushed out by doing <insert micro aggression>, that would put me on notice and I’d be watching them a lot more closely.
I wouldn’t report.
I’m not saying others shouldn’t, but I will say that I, personally, wouldn’t.
I only report extremely serious offences, typically only after multiple offences, and when I know that at least one other person has had similar experiences they’re willing to corroborate.
The way the conversation’s been going on MSB, I feel more confident in this stance than I did before.
Reporting incidents always carries with it the risk of making the accuser look like a part of the problem. This is doubly true if they become known as a serial reporter, which itself only takes a track record of having reported at least one other incident.
So I save that for when I really, really need it, and feel that I’ve already reached the end of my rope. Even on games where I genuinely trust the staff, I personally feel a high level of anxiety about how my “attitude” makes me look, and if I want to be taken seriously about serious offences, I won’t tank my credibility on minor slights.
I don’t think it’s great that people feel this way, but I know I’m not the only one who does.
I fully understand where you’re coming from. I will also say it’s the reason I’m never surprised when two or three people pop after a banning and privately page to say they experienced the same thing.
It makes me feel terrible. I want people to feel safe and not afraid that signaling to staff is going to have them labeled a troublemaker. The only way I know how to help with that is continued patience and understanding.
Side bar, kind of since here and there in this thread and MSB we’re touching on how this relates to sexism:
Before my current job, I worked in a male dominated part of my industry. I was once hauled into the office after a shift and told to watch my tone when I spoke to another co-worker. Because his supervisor had heard me “screaming” at him.
It didn’t matter that I had several witnesses to the opposite. That one of the witnesses was someone who didn’t like me. And that what really happened was I calmly asked him to leave my workspace after he’d returned for the third time to demand I hurry up fixing something his team broke.
I was still told to watch it.
So I get it when people hold back on reporting, I really, really, sincerely do.
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It’s only a “personal peeve” in that anyone would be PEEVED at being targeted by someone purposefully trying to be a jerk to you.
Oh for sure. But my question wasn’t whether we’ve the right to feel annoyed and frustrated - of course we do. In fact we’ve the right to feel… whatever we feel, whether it’s justified (and it would be in this case) or not.
What I was asking is whether this is reportable. I’ll bring up a reason for it in the next paragraph of why that’s relevant, in my opinion of course.
Reporting incidents always carries with it the risk of making the accuser look like a part of the problem. This is doubly true if they become known as a serial reporter, which itself only takes a track record of having reported at least one other incident.
That’s it. Reporting isn’t always a behavior the victim engages in. It can also be weaponized. Cherry-picking minor things, perhaps unintentional episodes, to create a certain narrative. ‘Kestrel said something about sports on a channel that one time after I asked for RP’, ‘Kestrel asked a question on a channel that other time after I started talking about my day’. Even if each instance was completely coincidental a determined abuser could build up a case over time.
And now @Kestrel is the problem.
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@Kestrel is the problem.
Coincidentally, I have also marked this down as my chosen epitaph.
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It can also be weaponized
You’re right. A player could potentially weaponize reports. It’s an ugly and murky area that every staffer should be aware of. I’m not sure what the solution is there other than a general ‘know your players’ attitude from staff.
And that sure as hell doesn’t cover it all. But in my personal experience the vast majority of players are not attempting to weaponize reports. Some folks might have a more finely tuned ‘fuck no’ button than others, but they’re not malicious.
@KarmaBum and myself were real briefly talking yesterday about something kind of related to ‘know your players’. Basically, what a different experience it is to attempt to sanely wrangle a large group versus some of the smaller games. And like, once your number of players goes up enough it’s almost impossible to know everyone.
Anyway rabble rabble
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@Arkandel Everyone knows that anything can be weaponized. That’s where trust in staff comes in. Are they capable of hearing about discomfort without needing to crush it under “are you sure its not just in your head?” no matter how nicely phrased? Do they care to receive tidbits and keep an eye on thing over time? If they’re not trustworthy with stuff like that or don’t care to community manage then that’s valuable information to know so that you know its on you to walk if things edge into too much. If they are, then it makes more of an environment where people can share minor stuff that can head some problems off at the pass. Not perfectly. But that’s important info too. Not everyone will feel comfortable playing on a game where staff encourages people to speak up if something made them uncomfortable even if it doesn’t rise to the level of harassment.
