Don’t forget we moved!
https://brandmu.day/
Bannings
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Hey, mods? Can I add to consideration a sub-board for warning about problem players? I feel like one of the problems with how MSB was laid out was that having them in the hog pit it let those threads gradually fall away into the distance. Even if it’s just a board that’s fully locked and those threads get moved to when someone is deemed sufficiently threatening?
VASpider, etc.
Just an idea, and won’t be saddened either way.
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@Solstice We’ll discuss it in private and only tell you the result but none of the subsequent conversation. (This is a joke, but we will discuss it.)
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A’ight, we discussed it (yes, it was fast, we just happen to be all awake at the same time). We were pretty unanimously in the camp of “opposed but could be convinced if there’s a substantial need for it”.
Main concerns expressed included making a place specifically to shit-talk specific people, the temptation to spread doxing information (like IP addresses) which we naturally wouldn’t condone, and generally making us feel kind of icky for ineffable reasons.
If you do find yourselves/ourselves needing such a section, I’d recommend putting up a post in the Comments and Feedback section for proper user-staff conversation on the topic.
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Also, Rough and Rowdy section exists and can be used for that kind of stuff as well, so long as it doesn’t include doxing, etc.
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That logic makes total sense, and thanks!
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Man, so. My serious of thoughts rattling around in no particular order.
MSB staff can share whatever they want of their justification for my continued ban. I don’t care.
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BMD is not a protest of MSB. Nor was it made in response to the Hogpit on MSB being renamed and having a new Code of Conduct issued for the site. BMD was made before that happened. It was made because a bunch of folks were banned and a bunch of other folks lost confidence in MSB moderation, so they made a new community. At most you could call it a vote of no confidence in MSB. But the repeated idea that a bunch of people were just mad at MSB saying everyone has to be nicer, that all these people just wanted the ability to be cruel and so they left, is bullshit. The timeline doesn’t hold up. People left because…
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The social contract between administration and a large portion of the active userbase was broken. Pretty much every other time I can recall an MSB staffer asking folks to chill out, move threads, take a breath, etc., it’s been respected. Or if it hasn’t been, people haven’t been affronted at seeing others get warnings. So why was this instance different? The popular answer I see trotted out on MSB is that it was all about Derp’s appointment, that people couldn’t stop arguing about Derp. Except, if you go back and reread the actual thread, that’s not what happened. Sure, some people were making quiet exits, because they didn’t trust Derp in an administrative capacity. But the reason people started getting vocally angry was one single ban that appeared to be entirely without merit. Two users had what could at most be called a tiff over DMs, they yelled some Last Words at each other over their shoulders, and then one side – the one who opened and continually extended the conversation – decided to report this under the guise that it was some sort of harassment. So you had someone who, at most, got a bit snarky in their exit, now being presented as someone guilty of actual harassment, and the community takes harassment pretty seriously. A number of people, myself included, had access to the log of the conversation, and found it a wildly out of touch response on the part of staff. And, when frustrations were voiced, staff doubled down.
There’s a social contract in every community, and when one side is seen to break it, it has a destructive effect on the community at large. That is why you saw such a strong reaction from a lot of posters who have never caused issues before and who only engage in debate rarely on the board. (I’m not talking about me here, as I know I’m argumentative, but people like tsar, Third Eye, etc.) If you lose the confidence of your userbase as a staffer, if you are no longer trusted to treat people fairly, then it is no surprise when your requests for silence aren’t respected. When people are angry about staff misconduct, then requests to not speak about the staff misconduct will be taken as silencing tactics.
That is what happened.
Had that first ban not occurred, I do think you would have seen some people leaving MSB due to not trusting Derp in an administrative position, but I don’t think it would have shaken out the same way.
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People who don’t even know Mietze, who aren’t even friends with her, should stop using her name as some sort of tool or proof or justification. Her name isn’t a weapon for you to wield, and it makes it very clear you have no idea what’s going on there.
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It is very, very clear that the decisions of who to unban were not based in any reasonable justification. The reasoning for not sharing anything about why some people were unbanned while others weren’t – and no, a general “we made reasons based on things” is not a reason – is thin enough to be transparent. If Derp had shit on me, he’d share it. There’s been talk at other times about keeping out the “line-pushers” now that MSB has a new Code of Conduct, except you can’t possibly make that argument for the vast majority of those who remain banned.
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The fact that MSB staff openly asked people what they could do better and then disparaged the responses before eventually splitting the thread (fine, makes sense) and locking it (not fine) just makes a public declaration that offering criticism of MSB staff is unwelcome and will be treated with hostility. If you actually want to engender trust, you are doing the opposite.
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You have not managed to cultivate some safe, polite atmosphere. There’s open snark over there, most particularly from the mods. Some of the people talking about how safe they feel now do so because the people who will call out others when they do shitty, creepy things are now gone. VulgarKitten changed her username to Hella and slipped right back on the board. She had previously disappeared after it came to light how she had been lying about her identity on Arx for months, manipulating others, and engaging in romantic and sexual RP with players who had NCOs against her. The safety she praises you all for now is the safety of a predator who knows that a lot of the people who would publicly point out their egregious behavior are now gone, so she can pretend everything’s fine and slip back in (to eventually do it again).
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Refusing to talk about any of the offending DMs of the banned parties, but then sharing a random anonymous DM talking about not liking three people speaking up, and then acting like it’s not about the three people who had been talking critically about MSB that night is – wow. Hugely manipulative.
Moreover, as indicated in the above point, the people who might feel safer are those who would prefer an environment where they are not held accountable for their actions. This isn’t actually a healthy environment. It is a pretense at civility. It’s surface deep.
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Also, if you’re going to hold the position that you “can’t speak to” the idea that Derp is bad at “women’s issues” because you yourself are a man, maybe you should listen to the numerous women who have said it? Maybe?
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Finally, good lord, if you are going to repeatedly harp on the necessity of irrefutable evidence and the ability of people to doctor logs, you cannot also then be confused as to why ANYONE would EVER hesitate to report ANYTHING to staff, Jesus Christ, please use a modicum of logic.
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Okay. That’s it. I am done. I have just had all these thoughts writhing around in my brain since last night.
she/her | playlist
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@Roz You forgot the bit about people being terrorists, that was my favourite part.
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I particularly enjoy seeing at least one of the meaner exclusionary folks I’ve met on games, who ran off some friends of mine for ‘playing their character wrong’, is now hand-wringing over feeling bullied. That’s fun.
Mummy Pun? MUMMY PUN!
She/her -
@Jennkryst Don’t look. Just leave them to stew in their pit.
The reactions to my departure told me a great deal. I haven’t looked back since.
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I just woke up (west coast shit) and I still have feelings I’m trying to process about this, so, sorry for bumping this again but I’m literally not sure where else to put it.
I was pretty emotionally fine through most of that. Legitimately trying to offer advice. Honestly, the bannings weren’t even my major concern – it’s accountability and improvement, the two points I listed, in whatever form they take. I think that’s what’s been missing, and seeing people falling right into the same toxic shit they’d been doing before was what prompted me to even post over there in the first place. I’d been good about keeping my distance. I wasn’t going to get into any kind of major debate, but then I was asked to give something.
I took it on good faith. What I posted yesterday on MSB amounted to hours of stress and thought, emotional labor that I really was putting out for the good of the board. I knew they wouldn’t be popular thoughts with the crowd there, but they were genuine ones. I kept my criticism laser-focused on staff actions, and the one time someone felt caught in the crossfire, I apologized.
And I was pretty okay, though I think my exhaustion was starting to show, when I was called a bully doing mean girl shit for that. I didn’t think I was going to change anything immediately, but maybe I could give them some things to think about and chew on.
The blatant attempt at manipulation and gaslighting (actual gaslighting, as in, trying to make me question my whole reality, not the colloquial way it’s been used as lying) at the end, though? That wounded me, I’m not going to lie. Partially because it was so clumsy and, honestly, how did they think that was going to work on me? But mostly because it was coming from the one person who looked like they were really trying to engage. That was some cold, evil shit.
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Honestly, and this isn’t official mod talk or anything, I don’t think it’s healthy to go over there (or bring their stuff here) to rehash and go over things. It’s picking at a scab at best and twisting a knife at worst.
Obviously I ain’t gonna stop you, but to put on my teacher voice for a moment: It’s your own time you’re wasting. They aren’t going to back down from their position any more than you’re gonna back down from yours. A clean break is better.
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So, I agree with just about everything Roz has said here, but there is one thing that I wanted to touch upon.
BMD is not a protest of MSB.
Perhaps not, but I think that is going to be the stigma and perception that BMD will always have to contend with, regardless of whatever those on BMD may think about it. Because of the reasons you stated here, all of which are valid reasons for deciding to shut off of MSB, this is going to be the perception. And this will be the excuse that some(not all)of MSB will leverage in order to continue this, in my view, a one-sided type of tribalism. A particular of level of antagonism that BMD are the bad ones here who’re out here slandering the name of ‘kinder, gentler MSB’.
In my view, I think the less folks here post about MSB, the better it’ll be. Because we know they read, and they’re going to feel justified in their actions, regardless of whatever we or posters on MSB are going to feel about it. To me, it smacks of a certain level of cognitive dissonance, but at this point, that’s neither here nor there. But my point is the same, I don’t believe there is anything to be gained by continuing talking about MSB. The staff here has already demonstrated that they are not going to act in such a manner, and have stated to hold them accountable if similar were to ever happen. That’s key here, is the self-awareness of being able to take accountability.
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Echoing @Pavel here. It’s really not healthy to continue to pursue this.
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Ultimately it’s in BMD’s best interest to just do our thing and ignore anything said and done on MSB.
But there were also several people - The Three
and everyone who remains banned - who were directly accused of things that were let to stand unchallenged, and I think it’s very fair for those people to want to express their feelings about that here, considering they literally can’t do it there. The Three are bullies and trolls, and everyone still banned is now painted as having sent some horrible DMs or whatever, which is all wildly unfair and it’s important to say so. I think if people need to discuss it within the community for a day or two it’s understandable. Not everyone was available to post yesterday in the moment so I think it’s reasonable to give them space to still say what they want to say. And for me to say that I’m sorry you all were treated this way, the accusations are ridiculous and unfair, and you didn’t deserve any of it. -
Skimmed to the end of that thread because Jesus fuck do I not have the spoons to listen to the mods over there explaining why they shouldn’t listen to the community, and I gotta say my main takeaway is I hate that the mansplainiest dude I’ve ever interacted with now has the unilateral power to get the final word on any topic and shut down a thread.
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The blatant attempt at manipulation and gaslighting (actual gaslighting, as in, trying to make me question my whole reality, not the colloquial way it’s been used as lying) at the end, though? That wounded me, I’m not going to lie. Partially because it was so clumsy and, honestly, how did they think that was going to work on me? But mostly because it was coming from the one person who looked like they were really trying to engage. That was some cold, evil shit.
Yeah, I read that and kind of just was slackjawed at the audacity of it. But I want to say I have so much admiration for you and your ability to keep pushing back on it.
I want to be you in those situations when I grow up.
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@GF Yeah but he’s King Turd of Shit Mountain so.
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Trying to stop talking but also can’t stop won’t stop
It’s also incredibly telling that issues keep springing up. There was the ‘I do not know what I am allowed to do without being banned’ and the fact that multiple posters, including staff, immediately begin to attack. Not bullies at all.
The biggest thing, which I cannot stress enough, or stop pointing out, is the hypocrisy of the ‘if people do not like it, they can leave and make their own place’ - anybody there who felt unwelcome could have left at any time and made their own place.
Instead, they would rather kick people out and set things on fire, because it was never about making MSB a nice place where everyone can just get along and not be a bully (because there are clearly plenty of bullies left, see above). Getting everyone banned was actually about hurting others, whether by expulsion from the community, or having no push back when it comes to hurting new people after making a clever name change disguise.
Which is also why we can never have our bans lifted. Not only would it be an admission of being wrong in the first place, but it would also be like stitching up a cut when some (not all, but certainly some) would rather leave the knife in, and maybe even twist it a bit further.
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@Jennkryst It comes down to one particular thing, in my mind. Which is controlling the narrative. If you can control the narrative, you control how people will view you in a positive light, even if you’ve done questionable or shitty things.
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@Snackness Hey. That’s my crown.
