On PvP and permanent injuries

[Alveraxus]

@Rinel

I’m making a note to come back to this to comment when we finish resolving our current bit of “A PC just killed the King and every other PC wants to figure out which PC did it and how”.

So far, honestly, it is progressing wonderfully from where I sit, though.

[Solstice]

@Pyrephox

To your point, I do think that one of the most important things is to be absolutely transparent about what is acceptable. Codified into the documentation, warned about in character generation. At that point, you’re consenting to an RP-PVP experience, and know what to expect.

Now, another thing that comes to mind in a PVP-allowed environment are things that are harder to control. That typical host of other baggage such as extremely vindictive and insular groups that can torment players that they dislike, gang up on newbies to control any ingame resources, and pressure IC actions due to the fear of character loss.

That’s some people’s jam, or else EVE Online, Rust, Ark: Survival Ascended, etc wouldn’t be a thing.

I don’t know if I’d be up to the task of policing it.

[NotSanni]

I think that there’s a place for games that have conflict between the PCs, but there’s a few things to be mindful of.

Rephrasing PvP as “CvC” and allowing for CvC - Character vs Character - conflict while not tolerating PvP (player vs player) content is a good first step (which is something that Silent Heaven does, to my understanding). But with that, you also need to make sure that the community is well maintained and managed - games with hard coded conflict/competition (especially in the RPI space) tend to draw a toxic crowd, and making sure to get ahead of that with a cultivated community goes a long way towards making sure CvC doesn’t become PvP.

Something else to be mindful of is a “talk shit, get hit” kind of system of CvC can exacerbate problems, as well. Typically, troublemakers do what they do for attention, whether it’s positive or negative attention, so when someone rolls up to a space that has codified conflict, it’s very easy to generate attention by just acting out. This tends to get solved in the “community cultivation” step of things, but it’s one of the things that can crop up with having open conflict between PCs.

[Pavel]

@Rinel said in On PvP and permanent injuries:

I also am starting to think that having the capacity to inflict harm on a character can provide a way to decrease, not increase, OOC animus

In my experience, it can happen, but so often people tie themselves up in their characters so deeply that any attack on a character is an attack on the person themselves - and this is only exacerbated when it comes to physical confrontations.

It’s almost always a net increase in OOC problems.

[Faraday]

@NotSanni said in On PvP and permanent injuries:

Rephrasing PvP as “CvC” and allowing for CvC - Character vs Character - conflict while not tolerating PvP (player vs player) content is a good first step

While I certainly agree that words have power and CvC is more the aim, I think running counter to well-established, cultural jargon is a losing proposition.

PvP never literally means actual player versus player. We’re not standing on posts whacking each other with sticks like American Gladiators (yes, I’m old). It’s always a conflict via character proxies.

And really, acknowledging that there is some measure of OOC factors (like a chess match, but with story beats) feels more honest.

[Jennkryst]

Lawyer Friend of mine introduced me to a fun legal term after giving the broad strokes of how a bunch of middle schoolers started a fight club at their school, and how fight clubs aren’t technically breaking the law. That term is mutual combat. Basically, it is consent to punch, as long as both sides agree and rules are in place to keep things from getting out of hand.

Since there is the distinction between PVP and CVC… wanna fight with folks? Stick it in your RP hooks, everyone agree to limits in OOC before hand, and then go forth.

And I get a lot of people already do this, with a blanket ‘I consent to whatever as long as no X or Y’… but consent can be withdrawn at any time, so maybe also get a more specific and up-to-date agreement in place.

Or I’m over-thinking things.

[Roz]

@Jennkryst said in On PvP and permanent injuries:

Since there is the distinction between PVP and CVC… wanna fight with folks? Stick it in your RP hooks, everyone agree to limits in OOC before hand, and then go forth.

I’ve reliably found that the players who put this sort of interest into their RP hooks have been the least capable of dealing reasonably with even mild IC conflict.

[Pavel]

@Jennkryst said in On PvP and permanent injuries:

fight clubs aren’t technically breaking the law

There’s a big, big, big, big, big ‘it depends’ asterisk attached to this statement.

[Ashkuri]

I’ve run a lot of pvp. Things that were successful:

• Clear rules set out ooc at the start so everyone knows what to expect
• Allowing “cinematic defeat” when people lost so they can topple over a cliff and lose the fight but not lose a limb or otherwise be grievously mangled
• Encouraging ooc banter and teasing in a fun way, gently nipping it if it starts to sound snotty
• Everyone using gear/weapons/powers that are clearly defined, and ideally automatic in the system

Things that were not successful:

• Anything outside the bounds of very clear dice vs dice that requires more subjective GM decision making.

“Politics” or social pvp was a disaster. Spy PvP was a disaster. People who don’t want to fight but want to do tricky shit to advantage their team, disaster. People who want to use special gear, perks, and magic that aren’t clearly defined so that they gain an advantage, disaster.

When everyone was rolling clean, no problems, people had fun. When it started getting into “I should be allowed to do this weird thing that means I win,” there were problems every time.

It would have been easier if that game had more things clearly defined, lol. PvP is exciting in a way PvNPC isn’t, but it can definitely get messy.

[Jennkryst]

@Roz said in On PvP and permanent injuries:

@Jennkryst said in On PvP and permanent injuries:

Since there is the distinction between PVP and CVC… wanna fight with folks? Stick it in your RP hooks, everyone agree to limits in OOC before hand, and then go forth.

I’ve reliably found that the players who put this sort of interest into their RP hooks have been the least capable of dealing reasonably with even mild IC conflict.

Yeah. That’s why instead of assuming people are cool with it, you could just go on RP Requests with ‘anybody wanna fight?’ and then discuss from there. Even if Player 1 is cool with getting mugged, Players 2-4 who are also in the scene might not be.

[Livia]

I like the idea of rebranding to CvC but it’ll never take – though I have seen PvP that really is about just beating the other player. OOC lies to convince a player to join a scene in a specific way ‘I’ll help you evade the authorities!’ only the then ICly set them up to get got.

I’ve had the ‘Hey I’d like to scene with you’ chat with someone I didn’t ICly get along with, get warned ‘Depending on how this goes, this could turn to violence’ and then when I agreed, extra people suddenly show up to help the other player out. Violence was a 100% guarantee, not a maybe, and it ended with my character dead and over out of seemingly nowhere.

That said, I really do enjoy going against other players sometimes, but like most forms of RP, it’s always been at its best when it really is a collaborative effort like other forms of RP. Discussions with the other parties, talking about what could or shouldn’t be attempted – sometimes you do want to surprise people so you might not mention everything, but sometimes with some chatter people will happily engage.

I don’t mind serious or permanent injury being done to my characters in the course of it either. Back in the days of Haunted Memories I had a mortal+ character built as a sort of ‘Hunter’ archetype, and one of my good friends needed to go away for a bit and volunteered to have his vamp be torpored by her to explain his absence. It drove so much RP as people looked for him and looked for her, and she ended up getting got but I had so much fun.

But I generally wouldn’t engage in serious PvP shenanigans with pure strangers anymore either. Some OOC communication beforehand needs to be done.

[Pavel]

@Livia Brb gonna trap Prism in a crystal… Will call it the Prism prison prism.

[Livia]

@Pavel Prism ponders Percy’s pernicious Prism prison prism.

[dvoraen]

@Livia said in On PvP and permanent injuries:

@Pavel Prism ponders Percy’s pernicious Prism prison prism.

I just wanted you to know I upvote for alliterative responses (ETA - bonus points awarded for username being part of the alliteration).

[watno]

It works well on Silent Heaven for a number of reasons.

First, there are no OOC channels. It can be fairly and easily assumed that all IC conflict is IC and consequence are kept IC and aside from OOC “you cool?” check ins (which are rarely needed because we have consent sheets). That said, you never know in SH what is happening on the other side of the line. So you might be fine, but the other player still might be OOC mad. But if they are, there’s really no avenue to turn it OOC toxic for the whole group.

Second, the game loudly and warns prospective players that their character will get shot, looted, etc etc. So it’s all up front and opt in.

Third, the physical conflicts mechanically resolve in minutes.

Four, you don’t lose your bit - and honestly, I think that tones down the ill will the most. There’s no harm that can be done that ends your story. As long as you want to play through to the end of the game, you can. So even if you get beat, shot, etc. there’s really no means by which someone can take your story away from you before you hit the end-game xp threshold.

And the community seems to be well policed for truly frivolous aggro nonsense. It’s easy to read through the veil of IC conflict mechanics to see potential OOC vengefulness and it is called out and staff will take action against it.

[Rinel]

@watno said in On PvP and permanent injuries:

Four, you don’t lose your bit - and honestly, I think that tones down the ill will the most. There’s no harm that can be done that ends your story.

This is definitely true. But it gives so much opportunity to change the story! I love it.

[Faraday]

@watno said in On PvP and permanent injuries:

It works well on Silent Heaven for a number of reasons.

Perhaps I’m missing something, but all of that seems very focused on physical conflict.

The majority of PVP interactions I’ve seen on games haven’t been centered around combat. It’s more about thwarting plans, taking a position someone thought was rightfully theirs, interfering with an IC relationship, making somebody look bad… heck, I had one player quit the game entirely over an IC prank (where no literal harm was done) because they felt the other player shouldn’t have gotten away with it.

Some of this is unavoidable, but at least on a co-op game there’s a set expectation that you’re supposed to work it out in a way that’s fun for all.

[watno]

@Faraday Oh. I just know the context around what happened to Rinel’s character so I was only addressing acrimonious interactions escalating to physical violence.

There’s plenty of non-violent PvP on Silent Heaven but as I haven’t personally been involved in any of it I can’t really comment on how it goes. But I can say there hasn’t been a single hint of OOC butthurt dropped in Discord or the one game ooc channel. So I won’t assume OOC acrimony doesn’t happen on a regular basis, but if it does it seems to be resolved quietly rather than blasted around the community.

There is plenty of IC bitching and moaning and jealousy and what have you, however.

[Apos]

I have complex feelings about it. Most of the games I play on my own are PVP games, and one of my earliest RP experiences developed organically from PVP on a game, and it was good and memorable enough it sold me on online RP to begin with. And then even before I started MUs, antagonistic tension in stories made for some of my favorite character dynamics of all time.

But man, for all the good times I’ve had personally in those dynamics going perfectly, I’ve seen them happen in just god awful ways to other people dozens of times more often.

For one thing, I think trying to achieve the balance that a competitive environment requires more often than not stands in tension with a strong narrative atmosphere. Fairness is always a good goal, but you can rapidly approach the point where unless everyone gets exactly equal storytelling, regardless of how excruciating they are to RP with and how miserable they are for GMs to attempt to entertain, the field gets unplayable in terms of balance. It can be extremely corrosive, and that’s why a lot of the games that allow PVP in close to unrestricted ways don’t really care about that kind of balance which creates enormous OOC toxicity and resentment.

In other words, competitive PVP needs a balanced field but in narrative games, but people are just not equally fun to RP with and not equally good storytellers.

And in more limited and restricted PVP, you are usually trying to avoid two separate poles and creating an enormous amount of effort in avoiding them. The first and most obvious, just bullying and people feeling they can push around characters weaker than they are without consequence, and without regard to whether the other player is having a good time. And the other, some character that really merits consequences, but it would be absolutely miserable for anyone to inflict it on them, so they are being incredibly obnoxious and a drag for everyone else to deal with, while trying to pressure other people into being the bad guy in a way that would be zero fun for them.

You can make a pvp game that addresses all those but the amount of time and effort involved is just hard to justify to me, when I could do other things that aren’t possible in a PVP environment that I think are generally better for story. Like you can make entirely collaborative systems without having to always worry about, ‘but what if the players are in opposition’. It skews the whole design, and you can’t ignore it.

[Third Eye]

I’m another who’s kinda struck by the focus on physical consequences like maiming as the seemingly implicit only example of a PvP consequence. I think losing status/getting fired/losing access to IC benefits is also a consequence for behavior but idk if players think of it as meaningful unless it’s attached to a +sheet’d demerit.