Why is Pack closing?

KarmaBum

Gotta say, after being told before that the prior analogy was akin to “what were you wearing”, a well known form of rape apologia, by at least two different people, it’s damn disappointing to see it defended with “why were you in that neighborhood”, instead.
This isn’t okay.

I agree with you. That’s not okay.

And it’s not what I said.

At no point have I or do I blame anyone for playing there, nor Cobalt for hosting it. I blame the creepers for creeping.

That they tend to use certain themes as cover for their creepiness? Sucks. But -

@Roz said in Why is Pack closing?:

there is value in examining what different themes might attract, so that people can be better armed and prepared to know what to keep an eye out for.

Adora

@KarmaBum said in Why is Pack closing?:

It’s just the neighborhood.

You may not have said the exact words “why were you in that neighborhood” but I fail to see how what you said is any different.

“It’s just the neighborhood. If you go to that neighborhood bad things will happen.”

Sounds familiar.

hellfrog

@Adora said in Why is Pack closing?:

Gotta say, after being told before that the prior analogy was akin to “what were you wearing”, a well known form of rape apologia, by at least two different people, it’s damn disappointing to see it defended with “why were you in that neighborhood”, instead.

KarmaBum

@Adora I apologize. That is not what I meant.

sao

There seems to me to be a concrete difference between:

“This theme attracts predators who use it to mask their behavior, let’s be aware of this; how can we alleviate that”

and

“This theme attracts predators so if you get predated while playing this theme it’s the theme’s fault”.

One is an OK thing to say, even constructive! The other isn’t. Conflating one for the other is tiresome, though.

Blaming the theme is pointless and reductive but it also wasn’t what Cobalt (or the people on this thread who agreed with her about it) was doing.

farfalla

@Adora None of this is victim blaming and absolutely no one has been anything but supportive of Cobalt. Who is this even in defense of, at this point? The theme itself?

Discussing the theme doesn’t mean it was Cobalt’s fault. It doesn’t mean Character X was at fault. It doesn’t mean creepers aren’t anywhere else. But pretending that there isn’t a problem in a specific place does mean that the problem isn’t going to get addressed.

Saying that there seems to be a lot of car crashes at a specific intersection doesn’t imply that everyone who has been in an accident there before was asking for one by driving there - and no one would suggest it does. It does mean that maybe we should look at why it’s happening so we can fix it and stop more people being harmed.

helvetica

This is an area where many of us are likely to have some strong reactions. And while I didn’t personally interpret what was said as victim blaming (at least, as intended), we can leave room for those who did. An apology was issued.

Third Eye

@Cobalt
Whatever worked or didn’t work about The Pack, I really hope the experience wasn’t too discouraging for you. Like I said lots of posts back, it DID seem like a game a lot of players responded to in positive ways, and I am really impressed with how you responded to an atmosphere that you didn’t feel good about being the gamerunner of anymore, because that was obviously really hard and Unfun to deal with this directly. I think it’s always constructive to reflect on why something didn’t work, or didn’t work for you personally, or get across what you wanted to get across, but I hope that doesn’t mean it was as wholly negative experience because you are a gamerunner lots of people like and respect and it’d be awesome to see another project from you in the MUSH space when you were excited to do it.

Adora

@KarmaBum I appreciate that it’s not what you meant, but I need to expand on this just a little.

The logic in your reply about IHOP seems to be directly saying Cobalt is at fault because just like IHOP exists to serve food to hungry people, the Pack exists to serve up other players to creeps, which is clearly not the case.

I believe when you say that was not your intent, and I appreciate the apology, but at this point in time we all need to be doing better with the language and analogies we choose, especially when the largest, longest running threads on this forum are about online habitual sexual predators and the people that enable them.

bear_necessities

@Adora Will you please stop? Targeting one person over semantics is not doing you any favors. You’ve made your point several times now. In the words of yourself: Do better.

Pax

@Adora

“I’m sorry, that’s not what I meant”
“I know but let me explain why that’s what you meant anyway–”

This is not productive discourse. The horse is dead. Leave it alone.

Adora

@Pax So everyone else gets to chime in and tell me how wrong I am for interpreting it in a certain manner, and defend their friend in a loud chorus, but I’m expected to fall silent when exploring the subtext of the initial comment and explaining why I found it offensive and triggering as a rape and domestic abuse survivor.

Gotcha. Consider it dropped.

bear_necessities

@Adora can I just ask how your comment here…
@Adora said in Star Wars Age of Alliances: Hadrix and Cujo:

I’m not trying to be a downer but these guys aren’t the ones who introduced sex crimes to Star Wars.
You know how in the third movie there was a Twi’lek girl dancing and when she tried not to get manhandled by Jabba, he murdered her? And how Leia was in a metal bikini and strangled Jabba with his own chain?
Sex crimes have always been an unfortunate part of Star Wars, and especially in the expanded universe. Twi’lek society is literally based around slavery, especially selling Twi’lek girls to men, because human men find them exotic.
So absolutely blame these jackasses for glorifying it, but George Lucas introduced sex crimes to Star Wars a loooong time ago… which is why it attracts so many creepers.

Is any different from what we are explaining above? Emphasis mine. This theme attracts creepers, there are creepers in this neighborhood, it’s all the same thing.

GF

@Pax said in Why is Pack closing?:

@Adora

“I’m sorry, that’s not what I meant”
“I know but let me explain why that’s what you meant anyway–”

I think this is an unfair characterization. Adora explicitly said in the post you’re replying to that she believes KarmaBum didn’t mean that analogy to be rape apologia. It’s the third sentence in.