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Bannings
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@hobos Forgiveness can be freeing, but forgiveness also doesn’t mean opening yourself up to continued abuse, and that’s a pretty clear distinction. It’s also not a moral imperative. It is, in fact, so difficult that there are whole holidays devoted to facilitating it and trying to move on, and that people who are especially capable of it are deemed practically divine.
Letting forgiveness make you vulnerable is one of the classic things I’ve seen get good people trapped in dangerous and deadly cycles of abuse.
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Yes, nobody has to accept an apology. But forgiveness is still more freeing than holding ten-year-old grudges in a small community.
Please don’t do that. Don’t act like forgiveness is an act of enlightenment. It’s not: it’s a choice that a person makes after considering whether the act would reap greater benefits than it costs to withhold. I feel the only way anyone can present forgiveness as a categorical good is if they have never had to calculate whether forgiveness would put them into unsafe positions.
It’d be nice to be able to be friends and forgive each other and direct our empathy to each other.
Friends respect boundaries. If Vulgar Kitten wants to be anyone’s friend (as opposed to you wanting everyone else to be Vulgar Kitten’s friend, for what reason I can’t even guess), then she is welcome to attempt to earn it by respecting people’s boundaries and offering the acts of contrition they would find convincing. If she’s not willing to do that, then that sucks, but two to tango and all that.
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Also Forgiveness != Forgetting about bad behavior, nor should it.
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@hobos Ah, the big post where she said she was sorry but that it wasn’t her fault it was everyone else’s fault, and really she was the victim.
Maybe she should have split those up so that the apology didn’t get lost.
The big post where @Testament said she would be back in 4 months but it was only 2 LOL.
Oh, that post.
ETA: To note, @hellfrog mentioned this earlier and I wasn’t sure what they were referring to initially and I wondered what I had said. Since, y’know, I’m now slightly paranoid about things I have said recently.
I now have clarity.
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@hobos I haven’t been subjected to anything VulgarKitten, as far as I know. Her ‘apology’ came off as more ‘I’m the victim’ to me as well. I try not to hold things against people (I can’t say I am always successful about it, probably am not most of the time. Thus ‘try’ being a keyword.), especially when they were angry/hurt/out for vengeance. Bad feels make a lot of bad actions. So, for all I know VK could have been acting out on her bad feels. I know nothing but what I saw on MSB.
As many of the people said she made the choice to sneak back on a game she claims to have had very little fun on due to X reasons. She made the choice to hide it. Her actions and way of saying things is what has people upset.
I’m not a fan of 'you have to beg for forgiveness but I do believe, like with trust, it needs to be earned. She broke peoples trusts and hurt people and made a post that very much sounded like everyone wronged her.
/My/ experience with this group is they often hold grudges for a long, very long, time but at least /try/ to give benefits of the doubt, even against people they don’t like at all. Also, that they often act in chained reactions. For example, Rucket (using him because I know him) gets upset at someone and gets into an altercation with that person. His friends get upset he’s upset and get involved. It gradually spirals in lots of people expressing their feels, on both sides. Which is very much what I think happened with the stuff on MSB involving Derp as admin and farfella being banned.
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@hobos I will give an honest take on this. You speak of forgiveness. I’m an advocate of people being given another chance. I’ve said in the past that this hobby has a tendency of being blind when it comes to who they do and do not ostracize. A good number of times, it’s right, and people like Cullen, Azazel, DWOPP, VasSpider, etc are not, nor should they be tolerated.
In situations where someone is marked for shunning that, yes, made a mistake or two, but has tried their best to make amends to change for the better and as a person? Those people I’ve seen be accepted by the very people who were against them. But that’s the thing, you have to actually show you want to improve. Saying sorry can only do so much, and only go so far. You want to be believed? Then you’re going to have to put effort into the statement. And that’s just how it is in RL as it is here
VK saying that she’s sorry, vanishing for two months, then coming back under a different name after people were banned doesn’t strike me as having learned a lesson. Maybe she will, maybe she won’t, that’s not my place to judge. Point is, she hasn’t done anything to warrant being offered another opportunity, because again, she hasn’t done anything to show otherwise.
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@icanbeyourmuse I actually vaguely remember having a MSB ‘fight’ with Rucket on one side defending someone that other people were saying did a ‘Bad’ thing (i forget what, or why). But now they are here! Like. I do not think anyone needs to agree all the time. I do not think we actually hold as many grudges as people present.
Like, even hobos. No one was actually going around and pointing out they cheated code on a game in /every/ post. Not in politics, not in anything else. And even in the arx threads on MSB, I think it only got mentioned once during the whole VK conversation? I honestly should go dig up the receipts, but I’m too tired. I’d encourage hobos to look into their own receipts.
Which actually reminded me that I promised someone I’d look into my own receipts on a topic and reflect if the hogpit opened back up.
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Also, FWIW, VK may have made a buried apology specifically about lying to people about her identity amid the big post she made. But I don’t think she ever apologized for the host of other behavior people objected to that happened before she even did that. Before she dropped Monique the first time and then returned. So people have little reason to believe an apology from someone they already had a bad experience with who doesn’t seem to show any acknowledgment of all these other parts of her behavior.
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@Meg I, frankly, want the people I spend time around to call me out when I get high on my own bullshit and get me to chill the fuck out rather than pretend everything is alright.
By and large, that’s what I’ve seen happen – if someone goes too far, they get reined in, but their opinion isn’t discarded in the future unless they’ve egregiously and repeatedly shown the same pattern. Engage in good faith and it gets returned.
I don’t mean this to be patting each other on the back, but more just … that’s the community I want, not faux positivity where people are hissing through their smiles.
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OK but let me point out that for all this talk of forgiveness and letting go, why haven’t you (@hobos) addressed that it was Macha who brought up this 10 year grudge against Roz in the first place, directly with someone she knew was a friend of Roz and would defend her?
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@icanbeyourmuse said in Bannings:
/My/ experience with this group is they often hold grudges for a long, very long, time but at least /try/ to give benefits of the doubt, even against people they don’t like at all. Also, that they often act in chained reactions. For example, Rucket (using him because I know him) gets upset at someone and gets into an altercation with that person. His friends get upset he’s upset and get involved. It gradually spirals in lots of people expressing their feels, on both sides. Which is very much what I think happened with the stuff on MSB involving Derp as admin and farfella being banned.
Just replying to this to say there is way more than one group here, and indeed many little groupuscules within it. For example, you and I know each other well. But I also know Roz. Equally, Roz often - I think - wants to throttle me for being wrong (and not just about vinegar on bread, the most delicious snack). Because we also have different cultural backgrounds etc. I think we often like to paper over all these cleavages for simple narratives. We shouldn’t say people aren’t connected, but we shouldn’t try to talk about ourselves as a singularity or even suggest that is good or desired.
As for Derp as admin and Farfalla, I don’t know how chained it was. Farfalla is a quiet person in a lot of ways. Reticent about championing themsevles in many cases. Now, I like Farfalla, again sometimes we disagree on things but I’d like to think we are friends. But I would hope I would have engaged the same way were it someone else with her profile. And the fact people from across the groups on MSB reacted shouldn’t be necessarily swept away. It was such an obvious injustice that it provoked the reaction. The link there, I think, is that the appointment of Derp without talking to the community, or indeed talking to Mietze (who is so important to Gany that Gany shoved her right under the bus, and reversed it back and forth a few times for certainty) broke trust. At which point people weren’t willing to trust the ‘wait and we will deal with it’ line when it finally came out (bear in mind it took some reaction to even get that).
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@hobos Are you being purposefully obtuse or just her newest victim?
I would like to know what sort of pity to throw your way.
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Macha was always nice to me, and she invited me to her game before anybody had heard about it, but she got super weird with a friend of mine, doing this whisper campaign insisting she was like covertly going to murder every player character who was in an arc my friend was running while at the same time telling my friend she had no idea where people were hearing that
The punchline is that all of this was on a free form consent-based game where you literally cannot kill other player characters
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On another note, if we are ever considering BMD to be someone’s living room, rather than the town square that I think a lot of us consider it to be (???), then I would very much like to be informed.
Sorry, I want to be in a living room with friends. I don’t want to be stuck in a living room with a bunch of randos. I’ll attend a MU* con, but I won’t have you all back to my hotel room.
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@Narson I suppose my brain is associating ‘group’ as MSB people, and BMD people over the mini-groups per board.
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On another note, if we are ever considering BMD to be someone’s living room, rather than the town square that I think a lot of us consider it to be (???), then I would very much like to be informed.
Sorry, I want to be in a living room with friends. I don’t want to be stuck in a living room with a bunch of randos. I’ll attend a MU* con, but I won’t have you all back to my hotel room.
The living room policy is something I will always associate with Firan so, you know, I think that is ALL I WILL SAY ON THAT.
she/they
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@icanbeyourmuse said in Bannings:
@Narson I suppose my brain is associating ‘group’ as MSB people, and BMD people over the mini-groups per board.
I’m sure - just thought it bore spelling out given how stuff gets analysed and dissected over the divide etc.
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why do I feel like I’m seeing the beginnings of an orgy here
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