Don’t forget we moved!
https://brandmu.day/
Bannings
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obligatory fuck ghost and yes let us shun him.
While I appreciate the sentiment, if he does turn up here he’ll be as welcome as the rest of us, unless and until he does something against our rules. The same with anyone else.
Just for the record, I do actually disagree with this. It used to be my stance. ‘oh they haven’t done anything /here/’ and that I thought was totally fair. But it also enables access for abusive people into spaces. Which isn’t to say I think people should be instabanned, much as that might make us feel momentarily better, but I think past behaviour should absolutely be taken into consideration. If someone with hugely problematic behaviour elsewhere turns up, and is given a chance, and shows that same behaviour I don’t think we should pretend that this is their first offense etc.
I appreciate that you disagree, but it’s the decision we made. Past behavior will be taken into account for all forum members because we are all humans who do things like that. But for now, all are welcome.
Oh, I’m not saying change the policy. Or throwing rocks until you do like a howler monkey kicking a 20 year smoking habit. Just saying that I disagree and why, and that I hope I’ll be wrong and people will behave responsibly.
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I miss p of Rinel.
Anyway, hoping that eventually all this will settle down and you can all be pals again.
- What the heck did Macha do that you all hate her so much? I have no idea who she is but it seems like some kind of seriously historic grudge.
- If it’s anything like what happened to VulgarKitten, who you are all still apparently ripping to shreds while not caring at all about the game runner exploitation that was perpetrated against her, then I think you need to get over it.
- Hopefully if p of Rinel sees this someday, she will know that I still care about her. :')
Hobos is an avid reader of MSB. He knows exactly what went down. He’s now come over here to ask some questions that he already knows the answer to that are likely to kick at people’s emotions again when they’re raw.
Don’t give that to him.
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@tsar Right? I read that post immediately and was like
lol lmao
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@Rathenhope I need the picture. I NEED THE PICTURE. YOU KNOW THE ONE.
she/they
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I miss p of Rinel.
Anyway, hoping that eventually all this will settle down and you can all be pals again.
- What the heck did Macha do that you all hate her so much? I have no idea who she is but it seems like some kind of seriously historic grudge.
- If it’s anything like what happened to VulgarKitten, who you are all still apparently ripping to shreds while not caring at all about the game runner exploitation that was perpetrated against her, then I think you need to get over it.
- Hopefully if p of Rinel sees this someday, she will know that I still care about her. :')
Hobos is an avid reader of MSB. He knows exactly what went down. He’s now come over here to ask some questions that he already knows the answer to that are likely to kick at people’s emotions again when they’re raw.
Don’t give that to him.
Eh, I’m gonna give him the benefit of the doubt. I also hope that the community can all be pals eventually and that Rinel comes back.
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@Meg I appreciate your optimism, even I don’t share it. If there’s something I’ve learned aboit the mushing community, is that many have long memories and hold grudges.
Not to say all, but I’ve seen it more often than not.
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I know you think VulgarKitten is lying to me about how she was actually the one pursued initially in that manner and simply did not wish to reveal who she was. We don’t really need to rehash this, but I believe her, having seen enough of Corban-player’s behavior back when I played, and –
I saw the logs on reddit and that last comment from farfalla was a bit argumentative, kind of ‘okay Macha doesn’t want to talk to me, I’ll get the last word in and then block her’ so I can see how anyone would be annoyed by it and want the offender to receive a warning at least.
And alright, Macha was a problem player 10 years ago and you thought maybe she was just young and stupid but now she’s a crybaby pulling a manipulative routine? The logic doesn’t make sense. Maybe she was young and stupid and now she’s just being a normal person who doesn’t like being annoyed and will stand up for herself?
Why do I feel the need to defend them? I mean, I am pretty sure they feel actively hurt and intentionally abused, too. I saw some talk earlier about how ‘if everyone says this about you, maybe you should reflect a bit’… well, “everyone” on other corners of the internet that have even heard of MSB have pretty much the same things to say about it, or at least they had. I know you’ve heard these things so I won’t repeat them, but I’m just suggesting… to do some self-examination.
When people hide who they are in order to avoid your ridicule, maybe they are horrible predators… or maybe they are just normal people who make normal mistakes like we all do and don’t want to be beholden to the extremely long memory and tribal attitudes here. The only reason I don’t hide who I am is because I have pride issues about my personal integrity, especially when it comes to potentially being attacked.
Also, don’t worry, I don’t feel dogpiled. I went into this with my guard up, expecting worse than you’ve given. From what I’ve seen, you are a people with boundless empathy, but you choose who to direct that towards.
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What’s funny is, I meant what I told Macha on the MSB thread: I genuinely had assumed that she was not the same player she had been in those days. When she chatted on MSB I generally assumed that she was, like me, just a player going about her business. Who among us is the same player we were in 2011? In 2004?
She just publicly demonstrated how wrong and dumb I was. By going after people I genuinely care about.
So yeah you right it is raw.
And Rinel: Fighting injustice is her whole goddamn life. I hope she’s still out there in the world making the first name proud. 6th amendment represent.
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@Rathenhope I need the picture. I NEED THE PICTURE. YOU KNOW THE ONE.
the only picture i NEED is the one @Herja just posted; it’s the only thing in this thread i can see now, and that’s fantastic
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@Tez I am no Rath but I know what you need.
fr fr
(she/her) -
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@hobos If the issue was MSB’s reputation, and people had concern over their identity being linked to past behavior, and if everyone was welcome to create a ‘new board’ and ‘new communities breed competition and ideas’ and ‘everyone is welcome to present their ideas to MSB’…
… then why didn’t the people there who wanted the community to go in a new direction simply not make their own new one? Why did the people who wanted a ‘fresh start/clean slate’ not join this new community? Why is ‘everyone welcome’ except for the people they banned?
Why do the rules they are so quick to proclaim and insist are great and just not equally applied? And why are they so quick and insistent on rewriting what happened without allowing people to correct them?
Mummy Pun? MUMMY PUN!
She/her -
@hobos but even setting Corban-player aside, he wasn’t the only one she lied to, gaslit, or broke NCOs against.
I don’t even disagree that Corban-player or even Apostate have their own sets of problematic behaviors. We all do, to some extent, some a lot more than others. But there is a line between that and ‘bad actor’…
Anyways, on the topic of Macha, I would agree her response went into a bit of argument, but so did /Macha’s/ when she said not to continue it.
That’s like saying ‘hey, I hate you and think you’re stupid. Please don’t continue this.’ And then being upset that someone says, ‘hey I think you’re stupid. But ok.’
If Macha had just said. ‘I don’t want to talk to you in DMs anymore, please don’t continue this.’ And farfalla had said more than ‘message received’, then I actually would have had a different opinion on this subject, believe it or not.
But as it is, it was more complicated.
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I know you think VulgarKitten is lying to me about how she was actually the one pursued initially in that manner and simply did not wish to reveal who she was. We don’t really need to rehash this, but I believe her, having seen enough of Corban-player’s behavior back when I played, and –
I don’t necessarily believe that’s a lie? It’s just irrelevant. If you have an NCO and the other party doesn’t know who you are, you are the one responsible for not engaging if someone else reaches out. The game has plenty of options for this. You absolutely cannot say “Well I know this person has an NCO with me as a player, but they paged me, so I can now do whatever I want, including hopping back into an IC romantic relationship.”
But as Meg pointed out, there were numerous people that she aggressively lied to that were not Corban. Why don’t you care about any of that?
I saw the logs on reddit and that last comment from farfalla was a bit argumentative, kind of ‘okay Macha doesn’t want to talk to me, I’ll get the last word in and then block her’ so I can see how anyone would be annoyed by it and want the offender to receive a warning at least.
You think someone should receive a warning for being a “bit argumentative”? Or for blocking someone who no longer wants contact with them? This all happened because Macha went into someone’s DMs to drag their friend. The conversation lulled multiple times and could have been dropped at any point. Macha is the one who felt the need to pick it back up and yell on her way out. Farfalla just yelled back to close the conversation, and then it was closed. It was a tiff at best. It was not, as Ganymede tried to frame it, some form of harassment. Because that is what the rule against contacting someone who doesn’t want contact with you is meant to combat: actual harassment. Not protect you after you started a fight with someone and didn’t like their response at the end.
And alright, Macha was a problem player 10 years ago and you thought maybe she was just young and stupid but now she’s a crybaby pulling a manipulative routine? The logic doesn’t make sense. Maybe she was young and stupid and now she’s just being a normal person who doesn’t like being annoyed and will stand up for herself?
The person who called her a crybaby is not one of the people who was on a game with her 10 years ago. Different posters on the board have different experiences with her.
I’m not mad at what Macha did ten years ago. I’m not the person I was ten years ago and I assumed she wasn’t, either. I’m annoyed because I was clearly wrong based on her current behavior.
How was she standing up for herself? I wasn’t bothering her. I wasn’t speaking to her or engaging with her or talking about her when she DMed Farfalla to tell her how terrible I am and how Farfalla shouldn’t like or trust me. What fight or conflict was happening that she needed to stand up for herself for? She was under no scrutiny until she took actions that people objected to.
And I wouldn’t have even cared or dragged it up publicly if it had just remained a private conversation between two people. Like, yeah, I would have been like “Wow, okay, Macha hasn’t actually grown up in the intervening 10 years,” but I would have continued doing the exact same thing I was doing: just leaving her alone and not engaging with her. It was because she then went and got someone banned for it. She baited someone into continuing a conversation with her repeatedly and then went and claimed that the person was refusing to stop talking to her.
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@Jennkryst Eh. I’m fine with not being welcome. If asking why people got banned haphazardly, while people like Arkandel posted after the ‘don’t post’ thing did so with impunity is deemed sufficient for a permaban, then that’s good. By Gany’s explanation, I was seeking for a ban - as I wasn’t profane nor did I literally ask for a block. Now, I wasn’t. Though I did at that point likely expect one - but if you bend in the face of unreasonable force, then you enable it. Better to highlight its absurdity. And looking at how many others posted in that thread and got banned or not banned, warned or not warned, and later unbanned it largely seem to be based on whether Gany liked them. And I’m good with this. It explained her logic, proved it is all about her rather than me, and I’m content.
Hobos, I think you are just being a professional contrarian at this point. I wish you well on it, but I’ll not be subscribing to your patreon today, thank you.
ETA: If the last part seems dismissive, well on this subject it is. But for what it is worth, I do hope you stay and engage in the constructive areas. You have a very different outlook on games, and while I might not agree with views, debates are often better for hearing them.
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Yes. VK lied to me. Repeatedly. She personally preyed on my willingness to set aside what she had done to my character and my org for a new player. She told me personal information I did not ask for in order to cement her status as a stranger and manipulated my willingness to help a new player get settled in efforts to keep her slate clean so that she could continue to lie, cheat, and manipulate others in order to get what she wanted. She lied about her personal health status. She lied about her time zone. She lied, and lied, and lied, and lied.
In the olden days, VK and I mutually avoided each other. This is what I usually do with people whose players I dislike. I don’t seek them out. Arx is a big game, it is very easy to simply not rp with people in spaces you don’t want to. I never sought a formal no contact because I didn’t think I needed one; if one of our characters entered a room or an event the other one of us quietly left. I don’t need staff intervention to simply be elsewhere, especially when the other player quite sensibly also is willing to be elsewhere.
When she came back, she actively sought me out and took advantage of my good nature. Because she knew it would work. I had nothing to do with whatever relationship she had or claimed to have with Apostate. I wasn’t party to whatever she was doing with Corban. I was just a player whose character was in a position that she wanted to have in her good graces.
If you have never experienced this, I am glad for you. It’s extremely unpleasant to discover.
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Yeah, that is a fair enough point, and it makes sense why farfalla was unbanned in the end. Honestly I think it’d be great if everyone was unbanned and the whole community decided together to move towards a more positive attitude, getting rid of the Hog Pit and “Rough and Rowdy” sections altogether, and forgiving and forgetting when things weren’t extremely clear-cut abuse (Azazel or whatever his name is, or other serial abusers).
Edit: I can totally understand why MSB doesn’t unban everyone straight off though especially considering the behavior of one person who was unbanned and starting spewing a lot of ridiculous vitriol real fast in order to force being banned again.
I do care that VulgarKitten lied to those people, and I feel for them, particularly one who I personally admire who was really hurt by the lies. More importantly, she is sorry about it. But I understand why she felt the need. And why she felt the need, to me, is a far more egregious breach of decency as it comes with a particular power dynamic and a particular sort of exploitative abuse.
Also, I did not read Macha’s whole conversation with farfalla, just the end. It went on too long. I think she was complaining about you being cliquish or something? They are complaints I have seen/heard before and it was really dragging so I skipped to the end. For what it’s worth, I don’t think your intentions are bad or evil or that you are purposefully being some kind of exclusive internet club.
I think that when you have a place like the Hog Pit on a community forum, this is the natural evolution of human behavior over time.
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But I understand why she felt the need. And why she felt the need, to me, is a far more egregious breach of decency as it comes with a particular power dynamic and a particular sort of exploitative abuse.
There really was no need and that’s sort of the issue here. She could have chosen not to violate the NCO, she could have chosen to not manipulate people to the degree she did, she could have chosen to just… not do any of this. She chose to. She chose to do things which actively harm people. No one forced her to, it was her choice, and many of those people whom she has directly harmed or indirectly harmed don’t forgive her for it, particularly as this is representative of a long pattern of toxic behavior from this player.
If that made her feel unwelcome, then may I introduce you to the phrase, “Oh no, not the consequences of my own actions!”
