pvp vs pvp
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@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
It’s like making a game set in the marvel cinematic universe but no one is allowed to play as the heroes or villains, they can only play normal people doing normal things. What’s the point of having a setting with extraordinary things if you are going to ignore them because it might involve conflict?
Why are you assuming that a lack of PVP means a game with no conflict? There have been plenty of MUs where PCs are only one faction and the antagonists are all NPCs. There can still be tense battles, epic betrayals, Big Darn Hero moments.
I’ll reiterate: it’s fine to enjoy PVP. But this stubborn insistence that it’s the only way to have fun is baffling. Especially when there are plenty of people here explaining why they enjoy a different thing. I may not personally like PVP, and as a game-runner I think it has more cons than pros, but I’m not baffled by why people like it. You do you. Just don’t WrongFun others who disagree.
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Lame is not a slur when it is used to describe a thing, only when it is used to describe a person.
It’s a synonym for disappointing, weak or unsatisfying that has been used for most of human history dating back to the early Germanic tribes that first used it to describe an animal with a non-functional of overly weak leg. You would put down your horse because it had a lame leg and couldn’t plow a field anymore.
It’s only considered a slur if you say a person is lame because you are advocating for them to be killed.
I’m very clearly not advocating for the murder of the people who run boring games.
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@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
Lame is not a slur when it is used to describe a thing, only when it is used to describe a person.
It’s a synonym for disappointing, weak or unsatisfying that has been used for most of human history dating back to the early Germanic tribes that first used it to describe an animal with a non-functional of overly weak leg. You would put down your horse because it had a lame leg and couldn’t plow a field anymore.
It’s only considered a slur if you say a person is lame because you are advocating for them to be killed.
I’m very clearly not advocating for the murder of the people who run boring games.
The people who have willingly engaged in extended discourse with you should get a medal.
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@Faraday said in pvp vs pvp:
There have been plenty of MUs where PCs are only one faction and the antagonists are all NPCs.
And how’s that working out for you? The games are empty, the players who do still log in mostly sit and idle until one of their click logs in and only then does any rp actually happen.
My original statement still holds true, your way is always going to lead to a game withering away. Putting everyone on the same team means staff takes on the burden of being everyone else in the world. It consolidates the responsibility of creating the content most games are designed around (fighting) to a few already overwhelmed staff members.
From superhero games to world of darkness, the whole hobby spiraled into decline when people started banning conflict and putting safety rails on the content to protect the whiners who complained they got murdered just because they did stuff ICly that should get them murdered.
When the games started being about protecting the feelings of bad actors who instigated trouble then ran to staff for protection it all went to shit.
Staff got tired of it so they just banned anyone from playing anything that could cause even the slightest bit of controversy and the games got more shittified every year.
Look at what is happening with the “collective shout” nonsense on steam and itch.io. This is the same thing played out over a longer timeline. Once you start capitulating to people who make it their life goal to ruin things for everyone they don’t stop. They get off on the second-hand power they are handed. They are never going to be satisfied, you can’t ever appease them enough.
It doesn’t matter what kind of game you are on or even what industry you are looking at, you can still see it happening every year. The slow creep of content getting more bland and restricted to protect the feelings of the professionally fragile.
If someone is facing actual injustice, then I will 100% stand with them, but as long as you try and cater to the people who whine about everything just to create drama, no matter what kind of project you are running, it is doomed to collapse.
If staff had learned to say, “That sounds like a you problem.” The text gaming community might not be a ghost town today.
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@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
My original statement still holds true, your way is always going to lead to a game withering away. Putting everyone on the same team means staff takes on the burden of being everyone else in the world. It consolidates the responsibility of creating the content most games are designed around (fighting) to a few already overwhelmed staff members.
That sounds like a you problem.
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@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
Lame is not a slur when it is used to describe a thing, only when it is used to describe a person.
It’s a synonym for disappointing, weak or unsatisfying that has been used for most of human history dating back to the early Germanic tribes that first used it to describe an animal with a non-functional of overly weak leg. You would put down your horse because it had a lame leg and couldn’t plow a field anymore.
It’s only considered a slur if you say a person is lame because you are advocating for them to be killed.
I’m very clearly not advocating for the murder of the people who run boring games.
Absolutely wild and inappropriate when someone says “please don’t use a slur” to go on a weird tirade.
All the red flags (no surprise, given your “GAMES ARE DYING BC THEY DON’T PLAY THE WAY I WANT THEM TO” attitude tho).
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@NotSanni
I’m not saying that games are dying because they aren’t being run the way I want them to be played. I’m saying that they are dying because they are being run the way a small hand full of whiny forever-victims who instigate the problems they then complain about want.The more generic and baby proofed the games became the more the player base dwindled away. What is happening now isn’t working. What people did then was working. Back in the day there were hundreds of active players on at a time. Now you’re lucky to see five.
Maybe, just maybe, you might want to think about why it worked back then instead of just dismissing the only time the medium was actually successful at retaining a large player base because it hurt the feelings of a few bad actors who just want to stir up shit and make drama.
Every year your player bases shrinks because people don’t find the games engaging and every year you double down on doing the same things that don’t work.
How many times are you going to make the same mistakes? Creating a new game with a different setting that is basically the same thing as the last game that collapsed with a slightly different coat of paint on it is never going to work in the long run.
You need to do something that works and the only thing with a proven track record of working is letting people play what they want to play. It’s probably too late now anyway. Even if you did stop trying to shoehorn everyone into the same bland box I doubt you will be able to entice enough players to try the text only format.
The whiny bitches won. They got what they wanted. The games are exactly the way they wanted them - and that’s why no one is playing them any more.
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@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
And how’s that working out for you? The games are empty, the players who do still log in mostly sit and idle until one of their click logs in and only then does any rp actually happen.
Worked out awesome for me actually. Many happy players having fun. Thousands of RP logs. Great stories being told. To each their own.
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@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
I’m saying that they are dying because they are being run the way a small hand full of whiny forever-victims who instigate the problems they then complain about want.
The more generic and baby proofed the games became the more the player base dwindled away. What is happening now isn’t working. What people did then was working. Back in the day there were hundreds of active players on at a time. Now you’re lucky to see five.
Maybe, just maybe, you might want to think about why it worked back then instead of just dismissing the only time the medium was actually successful at retaining a large player base because it hurt the feelings of a few bad actors who just want to stir up shit and make drama.
Text-based games are dying because gaming mediums are changing. People who want their dopamine fix have tens of thousands of choices, very few of which need telnet to access. This is no longer the Wild Wild Web 1.0 of unbridled creativity spawned by techological limitations.
Young people getting started go to Discord because that’s where all the RP is now. Thousands upon thousands of servers joinable at a click. Infinite accessibility. MUSHing is kept alive because of a dedicated and committed group and the average age of people in that group is rapidly ticking upwards.
It’s pretty clear now you’re arguing in bad faith. Everyone has their personal preferences, but I don’t see anyone else in this thread so virulently lambasting others for having preferences different from their own.
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@RedRocket I would rather play in a ghost town of a game, or not even play at all, than have to share space with people who crash out like you have. Your temper tantrum and sneering vitriol over people liking different things than you does nothing to help the case for PVP games. Quite the reverse.
So if you see nothing of value in the current MUSH community, might I be the first to invite you to keep on walking until you hit something else. Maybe try pickleball.
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@Pax said in pvp vs pvp:
Maybe try pickleball.
I was going to suggest GTA RP servers. Those are rife with people just randomly whacking each other.
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@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
@NotSanni
I’m not saying that games are dying because they aren’t being run the way I want them to be played. I’m saying that they are dying because they are being run the way a small hand full of whiny forever-victims who instigate the problems they then complain about want.The more generic and baby proofed the games became the more the player base dwindled away. What is happening now isn’t working. What people did then was working. Back in the day there were hundreds of active players on at a time. Now you’re lucky to see five.
Maybe, just maybe, you might want to think about why it worked back then instead of just dismissing the only time the medium was actually successful at retaining a large player base because it hurt the feelings of a few bad actors who just want to stir up shit and make drama.
Every year your player bases shrinks because people don’t find the games engaging and every year you double down on doing the same things that don’t work.
How many times are you going to make the same mistakes? Creating a new game with a different setting that is basically the same thing as the last game that collapsed with a slightly different coat of paint on it is never going to work in the long run.
You need to do something that works and the only thing with a proven track record of working is letting people play what they want to play. It’s probably too late now anyway. Even if you did stop trying to shoehorn everyone into the same bland box I doubt you will be able to entice enough players to try the text only format.
The whiny bitches won. They got what they wanted. The games are exactly the way they wanted them - and that’s why no one is playing them any more.
What a deeply unpleasant way you choose to navigate through life. I can’t imagine going onto a forum, and then having the audacity to throw a tantrum because “The whiny bitches won”.
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@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
It’s like making a game set in the marvel cinematic universe but no one is allowed to play as the heroes or villains, they can only play normal people doing normal things.
YES, LET ME PLAY THE SPACE GOO!
@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
They promised us a game of heroes fighting villains and delivered heroes trolling for sex scenes.
Bold of you to assume that the space goo was not intedned to be like 75% for trolling for sex scenes. Still fighting, sure, but ‘they only want smut’ did nothing to help here.
@MisterBoring said in pvp vs pvp:
Hell, one of the most popular MUSHes I can think of in recent years is Arx, and as far as I can tell (Arx players help me if I’m getting it wrong) it’s a Lords & Ladies game that was set in a high fantasy world, and while there was some darkness and nasty bits, they weren’t the regular thing in the game.
I specifically tried to add spooky darkness to a character twice, but could not haz (this ended up being fine, I only mention it for clarity. Edgelord (Edgelady?) Cunning Linguist were attempted.
@Faraday said in pvp vs pvp:
Why are you assuming that a lack of PVP means a game with no conflict?
PVP need not be physical combat, but it feels like games shy away from social combat (everyone take a shot, role/roll discourse is back!)
@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
@Pax
[attempt at etymology]If you want to use Ænglisc as a defense, fine, but now you must your whole message in the language or not at all.
@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
You would put down your horse because it had a lame leg and couldn’t plow a field anymore.
Bold of you to assume I would kill this horse.
@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
I’m very clearly not advocating for the murder of the people who run boring games.
Bold of you to assume we dont advocate for the murder of people who run boring games. [Legal disclaimer, I am told I have to assure you this is a joke.]
@RedRocket said in pvp vs pvp:
[A bunch of] whiny bitch[ing]
Same game/different paint is all about the paint! Different +roll mechanics? Very handwobble. Exact same system but without Sex Pests? Highly appealing!
… Incidentally, sex pests are why social combat gets so much hate. The sex pests think they can nat 20 a seduction roll, and everyone else forgets that means lots of exposed squishy parts exposed for dusemboweling or the like. Have fun with it, I say.
Anyway, problem with widespread PVP is it leads to paranoia builds which is peak boring. Everybody gotta build a certain way lest they get telenuked.
Limited PVP has its place. Rules to keep things civil enough that it isnt just wanton murder and death for people who aren’t into that sort of thing. Alas, history shows bad actors will try to push beyond those limits to ruin fun for everyone… they dont only want to murder the PVP_OK characters, they also just have to kill the stripper with a heart of gold who just wants to go dancing every night.
Mummy Pun? MUMMY PUN!
She/her -
@NotSanni
I’m not throwing a tantrum. I’m just telling you the truth as I see it. I watched these games that I loved go down the toilet because staff chose to coddle a few troublemakers and change the rules so that they would whine less.The damage may be irreversible but if it’s not, it’s certainly going to take a drastic and revolutionary new approach. That’s all I’m saying. What people are doing now isn’t working. Try something else. Hell, try anything else. Just stop making the same mistakes over and over and over. That’s all I ask. Stop listening to people who are clearly leading you down the wrong path. Do something new. Do something different.
Look at what worked in the past and what didn’t. Be objective. Don’t listen to people who want to make everything about them. Ask yourself, what can we do differently to attract and retain new players?
Surprise me! Please!
I want the hobby I used to love to be worth playing again. -
@RedRocket why is it on others to make the game you want? There’s enough tools and know-how around for you to develop one to your requirements.
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@Jennkryst said in pvp vs pvp:
@MisterBoring said in pvp vs pvp:
Hell, one of the most popular MUSHes I can think of in recent years is Arx, and as far as I can tell (Arx players help me if I’m getting it wrong) it’s a Lords & Ladies game that was set in a high fantasy world, and while there was some darkness and nasty bits, they weren’t the regular thing in the game.
I specifically tried to add spooky darkness to a character twice, but could not haz (this ended up being fine, I only mention it for clarity. Edgelord (Edgelady?) Cunning Linguist were attempted.
You could definitely die on Arx, it just wasn’t likely to be a PVP situation.
