MU Peeves Thread

[farfalla]

@Mourne said in MU Peeves Thread:

If your response is ‘I am sorry /you/ feel that way’ then you are no longer attempting to truly empathize, you have drawn your line in the sand, and by pairing it with an empathetic statement all you are doing is further trying to deflect the situation without resolving it.

I agree that “I’m sorry you feel that way” isn’t an apology, but I 100% think it’s a genuinely empathetic thing to say. It’s a statement of understanding, and showing that you’re listening to them and their concern (“I’m sorry that you feel xyz because xyz”). We use “sorry” all the time in ways that aren’t apologies - if a friend shares details of some trauma from their past, “I’m so sorry that happened to you” is genuinely empathetic and also not an apology, which we (usually) understand.

So when I say it at work, t doesn’t mean they’re right or I’m wrong, just that I’m sorry they’re feeling this way. It’s not blithe or dismissive when used in these contexts, because like… yeah, I’m not going to apologize for telling the person who’s screaming slurs at other people that they have to leave, but I am sorry that they believe we were hacking into their phone or whatever.

In grad school a professor told us that sometimes this works better if you say “I’m sorry you had that experience.” I may not have empathy for the screaming person, but if I step back I can think “okay yes, I’m sorry that someone had a bad experience here”. So I often use this instead of “I’m sorry you feel that way” because it’s definitely become diluted by people who try to use it as an apology rather than sympathy/empathy.

So yeah, I agree both that it’s not an apology and that it’s a useful statement.

[GF]

@farfalla said in MU Peeves Thread:

I agree that “I’m sorry you feel that way” isn’t an apology, but I 100% think it’s a genuinely empathetic thing to say.

I used to think that too, but in my life I’ve met so many people who seem to have no idea that “I’m sorry” means anything other than “I apologize.” Like:

Me: Hey, I heard about your mom. I’m so sorry.
Them: Why are you sorry? You didn’t give her cancer.

It blows my mind, but some people just don’t seem to think you can use “sorry” in any other way, so I’ve tried to learn to stop saying it.

[tsar]

@GF said in MU Peeves Thread:

Me: Hey, I heard about your mom. I’m so sorry.
Them: Why are you sorry? You didn’t give her cancer

Man, language and words are crazy.

So I’m deeply uncomfortable discussing stuff like that and I have 100% used this in a desperate, last ditch effort to joke and escape the conversation.

It definitely doesn’t make it right or anything, because it probably makes the other person feel confused awkward. But if someone says that to me, I usually take it as an ‘ah got it, you’d like to talk about anything else’.

[Roz]

@GF said in MU Peeves Thread:

@farfalla said in MU Peeves Thread:

I agree that “I’m sorry you feel that way” isn’t an apology, but I 100% think it’s a genuinely empathetic thing to say.

I used to think that too, but in my life I’ve met so many people who seem to have no idea that “I’m sorry” means anything other than “I apologize.” Like:

Me: Hey, I heard about your mom. I’m so sorry.
Them: Why are you sorry? You didn’t give her cancer.

It blows my mind, but some people just don’t seem to think you can use “sorry” in any other way, so I’ve tried to learn to stop saying it.

I find this response to actually be an indicator that the person just doesn’t have a good reflex for how to respond to empathy. I think most people remember that it can be hard knowing what to say when someone is sharing something vulnerable with you, a grief or trauma, etc. But it’s also often hard to know what to say in response to people offering you empathy in response. I don’t really think this is people trying to insist that you can’t use sorry in this format, as much as it’s a sort of – easy reflex? It’s less vulnerable to say something like that than something like “thank you,” which sort of acknowledges the grief further. It’s just a back and forth of humans having trouble handling grief and trauma.

And yeah I’m totally supported in this breakdown because tsar just posted before I finished writing this basically saying it’s why they say that.

[tsar]

@Roz said in MU Peeves Thread:

I find this response to actually be an indicator that the person just doesn’t have a good reflex for how to respond to empathy.

[GF]

I did choose a pretty extreme example for the sake of a point, but I hear it for even the most minor complaints. “Dangit, my kid’s baseball game got rained out.” “Oh, I’m sorry.” “Why? You don’t control the rain.”

This may very well be me taking stuff too literally, but it sure does come off like they think I’m apologizing for the weather, you know?

[tsar]

@GF said in MU Peeves Thread:

I did choose a pretty extreme example for the sake of a point, but I hear it for even the most minor complaints. “Dangit, my kid’s baseball game got rained out.” “Oh, I’m sorry.” “Why? You don’t control the rain.”

This may very well be me taking stuff too literally, but it sure does come off like they think I’m apologizing for the weather, you know?

I’m definitely almost always using it in a joking/humorous/non serious way when I do it. But now I wonder how many people have thought I was full on serious, lol.

deep panicked contemplation ensues

[farfalla]

@GF That was the (usually), yeah.

[mietze]

Yeah, I think when someone says “sorry”, it’s important to take a moment to see what context they are using it in. We can all think of the extreme examples of this (“I’m sorry that you have such a crappy life that I forgot I need to be gentle with you because I have such a great life that I just don’t think that anyone would have been hurt by my words/actions! Sorry, man!” or “I’m sorry I’m just so horrible that I made you feel like I was cheating/made you uncomfortable, I guess now I need to go fall on my sword and eat mud and contemplate what a waste of life I am sorry sorry sorry sorry!! I’m the most worthless person ever, please forgive me!”) But I think that most of the time that particular word doesn’t have a universal context or purpose.

It can be a statement of recognizing that one’s intentions were not communicated clearly. “Wow, I’m really sorry that my phrasing made you feel that way, may I try to explain further?” “I’m sorry that you are upset by this.” This may or may not be accompanied by the expectation that that whatever incident prompted a misunderstanding/reaction can be eased or removed.

It can be a statement of actual apology, but usually that’s more like “I’m sorry. Is there any way I can repair this/I understand if there’s a consequence for that, and I wish that I had spoken/acted differently. My actions/words were not your fault/I shouldn’t have spoken in anger/made those assumptions/ect.”

Sometimes feelings get mixed because someone really wants an apology apology or a remedy, but that’s not going to be forthcoming or possible. Also complicated perhaps by cultural expectations that one should apologize/must accept all apologies or else you’re a bad person.

But also, sometimes it’s just a peeve that a particular phrasing is irritating personally, and i mean, we all have stuff like that too. It doesn’t have to be deeper than that.

[Birdie]

I think context here is the indicator on how to use “I’m sorry you feel that way.” I actually use this ALL the time with my kids because it allows me to let them know that I empathize with their feelings, I validate that they feel a certain way, and then I follow this up with fulfilling a need or redirecting them to a more positive solution. But when I use “I am sorry you feel this way.” it is always followed up with something along the lines of “How can we make you feel better? What can I do to help you?”

If the person is just coming back at you and saying “I’m sorry you feel that way.” then is like peace out, or that’s your problem, etc., yeah, it’s a shitty use of something that could potentially be used to mend and not further cause divide or strife.

In the MU world, I would see this as a red flag and then stay very far away from anyone like this.

[Jumpscare]

Over a month ago, I received the worst apology I’ve ever seen from a MUing community.

This was from a community leader who shared with an outside party information about me that was only viewable by staff members. He also conflated the information to tell a lie about me. I found out about it through the grapevine. So I asked in public chat if he did in fact say what he said, and if so, to please stop spreading misinformation about me. And if he didn’t say it, I said I’d deal with it.

I expected a “No, what’s going on?” Or a “Yes, I’m sorry. I made a mistake and I won’t do it again.” Instead it exploded into a barrage of weasely statements like, “I have never lied in my life” and “This isn’t the right place to be discussing this.”

I said that this is how whisper campaigns start, and I refused to be a part of it, so I left the community.

The person in charge of the community reached out to me and said that the staff member had issued an apology.

Brace yourselves for this one.

I had to stare at that for a while. There’s just so much to it. Here’s a breakdown of what I found.

• The apology begins with saying it was my fault for doing things in a way he didn’t like. (A staff member asking to take it to DMs with him? We’ve seen that before.)
• He says hates people bringing drama, but who is he referring to here? This isn’t apologetic, it’s antagonistic.
• Is he calling my way of dealing with things immature? Is that something people normally say when apologizing?
• When the word “sorry” does come out, my name isn’t even attached to it.
• He says “of course” as if the apology is already a given.
• In a contest for worst non-apology phrase I’ve ever heard, “I’m sorry careless words reached them” is among the cream of the crop.
• “I did not need to share this piece of information” makes it sound like the information was factual, when it very much was a lie.

To spare him some shred of dignity, I won’t share what he said about me, because it reveals a lot about his character.

Plus, it feels antagonistic. The point of this post is to showcase the non-apology, not the person behind the non-apology.

Plus, he sent an actual apology after I told the person in charge that it wasn’t good enough. It wouldn’t be in good faith if I ended the story here.

So, since it seemed like this staff member had never written an apology before, I wrote one for him, containing all the necessary points. I delivered it to the person in charge, with a note that said that the staff member could just copy & paste what I wrote, and that’d be acceptable to me. To his credit, he did in fact use it as a template for his corrected apology.

While it has some eyerolly parts and it claims that what was said was true, it’s better than the first one, and to me, it feels like he actually tried. So I accepted it, and I said I’d return to the community in three months.

Thanks for reading.

[Meg]

@Jumpscare i’m gonna be real honest: i wouldn’t have accepted the second one, either.

the lil bitch can’t just own up to talking shit and finding out.

[Testament]

@Jumpscare said in MU Peeves Thread:

Instead it exploded into a barrage of weasely statements like, “I have never lied in my life”

I was already checked out with this guy when reading this line. This distorted perception of your own self-image that you would, even if not serious, imply that you’ve never lied.

When people feel obligated to say “I’ve never lied.” I’m already going to think, oh buddy, you probably lie a lot.

[GF]

@Jumpscare said in MU Peeves Thread:

“I have never lied in my life”

I am the most honest person in this or any room. Many, many people are saying this, many strong people who come up to me with tears in their eyes and say, ‘Sir, thank you for for being the only honest man in the world.’

[Testament]

@GF Only the best people. Just ask anyone, they’ll tell you.

[Jumpscare]

@Meg said in MU Peeves Thread:

@Jumpscare i’m gonna be real honest: i wouldn’t have accepted the second one, either.

the lil bitch can’t just own up to talking shit and finding out.

You’re right. And I know you’re right. If it were my community, he would have been long gone.

Like @Testament and @GF said, “I have never lied in my life” was the moment I didn’t need to hear any more. He was trying to make the whole thing go away without addressing it.

I think he won’t change. I think he’s going to get himself in trouble again. I think the only lesson he’s learned is to not get caught. Has he learned to be a good person? Probably not.

[farfalla]

I hate when people say that, because it’s so obviously bullshit. “Your hair looks great”, “I’m late because traffic was bad”, “It was so nice to see you”, “We’ll do lunch soon” - we all lie all the time. If you say you don’t you’re lying, so therefore you do in fact lie.

There have been multiple movies about this.

[Mourne]

@farfalla said in MU Peeves Thread:

blah blah blah “I’m late because traffic was bad” blah blah blah

I have been late because of traffic!

But in general, everyone lies. Especially when we don’t think it’s important. It’s just like everyone has stolen or tried to steal. Especially when we are small children and don’t even have the vaguest notions of petty little things like ownership or payment for goods, etc.

I wouldn’t have accepted either apology as has been said

If you had to format the apology for someone else, and they still couldn’t follow it, and even if they did follow it it was obvious by this point the entire apology was disingenuous so… not worth much.

[Testament]

@Jumpscare said in MU Peeves Thread:

@Meg said in MU Peeves Thread:

@Jumpscare i’m gonna be real honest: i wouldn’t have accepted the second one, either.

the lil bitch can’t just own up to talking shit and finding out.

You’re right. And I know you’re right. If it were my community, he would have been long gone.

Like @Testament and @GF said, “I have never lied in my life” was the moment I didn’t need to hear any more. He was trying to make the whole thing go away without addressing it.

lol this guy

I read this, and yet all I hear

[Jumpscare]

@Testament
Oh my god, I can’t not read that in his voice now! Wow.