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Bannings
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@Arkandel Everyone knows that anything can be weaponized. That’s where trust in staff comes in. Are they capable of hearing about discomfort without needing to crush it under “are you sure its not just in your head?” no matter how nicely phrased? Do they care to receive tidbits and keep an eye on thing over time? If they’re not trustworthy with stuff like that or don’t care to community manage then that’s valuable information to know so that you know its on you to walk if things edge into too much. If they are, then it makes more of an environment where people can share minor stuff that can head some problems off at the pass. Not perfectly. But that’s important info too. Not everyone will feel comfortable playing on a game where staff encourages people to speak up if something made them uncomfortable even if it doesn’t rise to the level of harassment.
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The fear of being seen as The Whiner is real. I’ve avoided reporting things that seemed non-reportable - constant and intentional passive aggressiveness, for instance - because I didn’t want to seem like a complainer who was out to get someone. Only to later find out that knowing that would have been valuable to staff.
When I started on Arx, a player pressured me to TS and then when I declined IC with reference to her sexuality he said, OOC, that maybe the right dick would fix her. I didn’t report this, because I had invited him to my room (to look at a painting we had been discussing!) so it was probably my fault and what else would I have expected. It wasn’t like he paged me out of nowhere. @sao (lovingly) bullied me into reporting and he was banned like 10 minutes later - in part because someone else had also reported him being borderline creepy but not instabannable. Would he have been banned if there wasn’t already a report about something more minor? I don’t know!
After several years, I know and trust Arx staff enough to report and let them decide what to do with it, but only because I have gotten to know them and I’m pretty sure they know I wouldn’t report maliciously. But there’s no way I’d do that immediately on a new game. It’s a tricky line to walk, for sure.
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When I started on Arx, a player pressured me to TS and then when I declined IC with reference to her sexuality he said, OOC, that maybe the right dick would fix her.
Fucking hell. The complete lack of self-awareness.
I don't know what I'm doing. Poke at Seven Nations sevennations.aresmush.com port 2021
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It’s only a “personal peeve” in that anyone would be PEEVED at being targeted by someone purposefully trying to be a jerk to you.
Oh for sure. But my question wasn’t whether we’ve the right to feel annoyed and frustrated - of course we do. In fact we’ve the right to feel… whatever we feel, whether it’s justified (and it would be in this case) or not.
What I was asking is whether this is reportable. I’ll bring up a reason for it in the next paragraph of why that’s relevant, in my opinion of course.
I was answering your question, I wasn’t answering that someone has the right to feel justified. I was saying that calling the behavior described a “peeve” makes it sound like – idk, someone doing a thing that’s not really targeted at you, but you just find annoying. I’m saying this scenario is not a peeve; it’s a purposeful, targeted behavior. Not a huge one, but if it’s done so regularly and consistently, it’s not an accident.
So yes, I was saying it’s reportable, because the consistency of the pattern indicates that it’s purposeful.
Reporting incidents always carries with it the risk of making the accuser look like a part of the problem. This is doubly true if they become known as a serial reporter, which itself only takes a track record of having reported at least one other incident.
That’s it. Reporting isn’t always a behavior the victim engages in. It can also be weaponized. Cherry-picking minor things, perhaps unintentional episodes, to create a certain narrative. ‘Kestrel said something about sports on a channel that one time after I asked for RP’, ‘Kestrel asked a question on a channel that other time after I started talking about my day’. Even if each instance was completely coincidental a determined abuser could build up a case over time.
And now @Kestrel is the problem.
The ability for something to be weaponized has no bearing on whether or not an incident is reportable. Kestrel is talking about something slightly off to the side – that maybe something is reportable in an objective sense, but someone still may not feel comfortable reporting it. These are two different questions.
@Testament said in Bannings:
When I started on Arx, a player pressured me to TS and then when I declined IC with reference to her sexuality he said, OOC, that maybe the right dick would fix her.
Fucking hell. The complete lack of self-awareness.
That’s not a lack of self-awareness; it’s purposeful. The ugliness, the causing of discomfort, is the point.
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@Testament I mean, it’s a very common male response to lesbians in RL. I’ve heard it before. But it is absolutely still super fucking gross and idiotic.
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Being able to do that with warning signs is so important. I’ve never had a major incident on Arx but I believe that I would be able to stay even if I did because of the comfort level of being listened to over the minor/not flagrant rule breaking stuff.
Nothing to do with me, but it’s still really nice to see this said about a game. Any game, tbh!
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The reason I mentioned the channel behavior was specifically because it’s something generally innocuous and inoffensive (talking on channel) turned into a weapon of exclusion that’s part of a long term problem that typically does not get dealt with, but absolutely chases people off games. I find it interesting that this, being a KNOWN tactic of one of the worst people in the hobby, that the validity of it even being a problem is debated.
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@Testament in my experiences dealing with people like that they’re very aware of what they’re doing, which is trying to pressure someone into crossing boundaries they don’t want to.
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This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staff’s role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
Staff has no role in micromanaging personal peeves.
They DO have a role in dealing with microagressions.
I agree with your first statement - this IS a microagression, and staff sure can handle it. I wouldn’t or ban someone over this. What I’d do is have a conversation with them about the behavior, without ascribing intent. This is happening, it needs to not happen. It doesn’t actually matter what they intend, and that way you can short circuit a lot of defensiveness. Just ‘great, I’m glad you’re not doing it on purpose. Now I just need you to be aware and not let it happen on accident, either.’
If they change their behavior, great. If they don’t, then I’d ban them for continuing to behave in a way that they were asked not to, because it was harmful. That, to me, says something clear about actual intent.
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This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staff’s role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
At some point, it has to become a vibes-based decision. I mean, we could sit down and try to create a formula by which to determine how many instances changing the subject over what period of time constitute an actionable pattern, but at that point we’re trying to moderate by algorithm, deflecting staff responsibility onto The System. It has to be okay to turn around and say to the kids in the back seat, “Yes, I know you’re not actually touching your sister, but you know the purpose of the rule isn’t that touching her is the one and only forbidden action.”
I think this mindset comes from a belief that rules should be about negative enforcement rather than positive; i.e., forbidding certain behaviors rather than creating expectations of what you should do. There’s a subtle difference between telling someone “Don’t be a jerk” and “Be respectful of others.”
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If they change their behavior, great. If they don’t, then I’d ban them for continuing to behave in a way that they were asked not to, because it was harmful.
This is the #1 reason we ban people from the library. Not because of the initial thing they were doing that we had to ask them to stop doing (no mask, playing music without headphones, drinking alcohol, yelling, whatever) but because they don’t do what we ask. The vast majority of ban violations are “Failing to comply with the reasonable direction of a staff member.” Idk what my point is, here, but it seemed relevant when I started writing.
There’s a subtle difference between telling someone “Don’t be a jerk” and “Be respectful of others.”
Very true. Humans (and dogs, tbh) are much better at following positive instructions. That’s why you tell kids “walk please” instead of “don’t run”.
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At some point, it has to become a vibes-based decision.
Honestly? At every point. Even looking down the barrel of logs and screenshots, you’re still gonna have to make a decision based on your instincts.
I’m not sure people grasp how much even the most flippant of us wind up agonizing over these decisions sometimes. “I don’t want to make a big deal out of this” is probably the most common phrase people say to me when they want to put someone on my radar, and that’s sort of a sad state of affairs. Even on GH, which was a hot mess, we only ever got a handful of actual complaints about behavior from people; most people who are getting harassed just leave rather than go through the whole process of reporting someone.
The only false report I’ve ever gotten on any game, to my knowledge, was from Ruiz. Who went right for the throat with a job to complain about the person it turned out she was harassing. Neither player got banned over it, though the other player eventually quit.
^ See above re: wrong way on a decision before. I should’ve banned Ruiz right then (or at least shortly afterward when her creepiness started to twig @bear_necessities), but no one had receipts and it felt somehow wrong to ban someone just because my co-admin thought they were creepy.
Which is just the dumbest rationale I’ve ever used, and it embarrasses me to this day.
tl;dr - be a good admin and swing the ban-hammer freely till you achieve the desired PEACE & QUIET
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tl;dr - be a good admin and swing the ban-hammer freely till you achieve the desired PEACE & QUIET
lol lmao
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Which is just the dumbest rationale I’ve ever used, and it embarrasses me to this day.
Idk if this any consolation or not, but as a person very picky about where I’ll play certain characters because I’m deeply neurotic, I’m comfortable playing them in a space you organize.
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Idk if this any consolation or not
It is more than consolation. It means a lot and thank you for saying it.
If you ever make a game, I will also feel safe to play there.
(please get to work on this, Ruben the Rolex-wearing janitor is burning a hole in my mental pocket)
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Idk if this any consolation or not
It is more than consolation. It means a lot and thank you for saying it.
If you ever make a game, I will also feel safe to play there.
(please get to work on this, Ruben the Rolex-wearing janitor is burning a hole in my mental pocket)
I got like halfway through the lore/setting stuff and then gestures
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And lest people think I am a hypocrite that is upset because I got banned yet as staff of a game, I am not shy about using my own banhammer:
I’m not here because I am horrified about Ganymede having gone on a banning rampage (except when she banned @farfalla because Macha was being manipulative, that was super fucked up). I am not upset over being banned and I completely deserved mine. You do not call people clowns living in clown town and not expect to very soon lose access.
I am here because I think Derp and his current team are bad for the hobby. Victim shaming and whatever authoritarian power grab happened over there are some of the WORST aspects of this hobby and watching this happen in real time after hearing about it happening on various games is wild. I’m not mad over the bans. I’m mad that the worst the hobby has to offer has been given a safe space to continue to spread toxicity and ‘hide’ from the well-deserved consequences of their fucked up actions. (Looking right at you, Hella)
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@Herja While I realistically wouldn’t expect it, I however would not be surprised if they somehow did the mental gymnastics to allow either Cullen or Dropkick to start posting there(I’m pointedly not including DWOPP in that because I can’t imagine any MSB staff being so oblivious to be okay with that). I would rate the things that Cullen did and what Hella/VK did to pretty near each other. So if they let one of them there…
Like I said, I’m not expecting but, also my expectations are exceedingly low at this point.
I don't know what I'm doing. Poke at Seven Nations sevennations.aresmush.com port 2021
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@Arkandel If someone sent me an Ares log of that happening on channel, or reported it to me as staff and I watched it happen a couple of times, I would absolutely give the offending player a virtual Gibbs-smack (phrasing it as my having observed the phenomenon, not as anyone having reported it) and tell them that if they did anything like that again, they’d be gone.
It’s definitely a bullying/silencing tactic, often used to isolate people from those around them, and suggests that it’s the tip of the iceberg of that player’s actions.
To @Arkandel’s point that reports like that can be weaponized, that’s why I would want to see an Ares log or see it happen myself, to make sure it wasn’t “just” someone feeling like this was happening, or to make sure it wasn’t being weaponized.
Formerly known as Seraphim73 (he/him)
