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Bannings
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I think that is where that trust thing comes in. I think a lot of people misinterpret trust to mean “I expect that if I mention something that they’ll agree and protect me immediately.”
For me it means that I can trust that they’ll listen without judging /me/ and that now I can put that notice in their hands abd just not worry about it and then just go on about my business.
The reason why I play on Arx is that I can trust several members of staff to be safe people to tell if something is making me uncomfortable (and other things too) and know that I can relax about it afterwards. Being able to do that with warning signs is so important. I’ve never had a major incident on Arx but I believe that I would be able to stay even if I did because of the comfort level of being listened to over the minor/not flagrant rule breaking stuff.
This is not to say I haven’t been pissy or irritable about decisions or changes or squeaky wheels or what have you. Feeling safe is never really about “things being exactly how I want” for me. But expressing concern or being weirded out and NOT having someone immediately jump into lecturing me about how they must be fair to the other person and am I sure I’m just not misinterpreting is so important because honestly if I didn’t expect there’d be an attempt to be fair I wouldn’t play on the game, and I’d hope they’d also extend me the benefit of the doubt that if it pinged me odd enough to report it it was because it overrode those feelings of “am I overreacting.”
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Say, changing the subject every single time their target spoke up on a channel about something. It’s not even REPORTABLE, but after 20 times of being silenced like this, it’s obviously a pattern.)
That caught my eye.
This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staff’s role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
… I used micro twice in two paragraphs. Ew.
But anyway, what is that line, what does it look like?
I think the player should report. No, this by itself isn’t bannable and might not even be something you’d talk to someone about right away.
It’s something I’d probably never notice if it wasn’t happening to me.
But if it was pointed out in like, hey this person has been causing me to feel pushed out by doing <insert micro aggression>, that would put me on notice and I’d be watching them a lot more closely.
I wouldn’t report.
I’m not saying others shouldn’t, but I will say that I, personally, wouldn’t.
I only report extremely serious offences, typically only after multiple offences, and when I know that at least one other person has had similar experiences they’re willing to corroborate.
The way the conversation’s been going on MSB, I feel more confident in this stance than I did before.
Reporting incidents always carries with it the risk of making the accuser look like a part of the problem. This is doubly true if they become known as a serial reporter, which itself only takes a track record of having reported at least one other incident.
So I save that for when I really, really need it, and feel that I’ve already reached the end of my rope. Even on games where I genuinely trust the staff, I personally feel a high level of anxiety about how my “attitude” makes me look, and if I want to be taken seriously about serious offences, I won’t tank my credibility on minor slights.
I don’t think it’s great that people feel this way, but I know I’m not the only one who does.
I fully understand where you’re coming from. I will also say it’s the reason I’m never surprised when two or three people pop after a banning and privately page to say they experienced the same thing.
It makes me feel terrible. I want people to feel safe and not afraid that signaling to staff is going to have them labeled a troublemaker. The only way I know how to help with that is continued patience and understanding.
Side bar, kind of since here and there in this thread and MSB we’re touching on how this relates to sexism:
Before my current job, I worked in a male dominated part of my industry. I was once hauled into the office after a shift and told to watch my tone when I spoke to another co-worker. Because his supervisor had heard me “screaming” at him.
It didn’t matter that I had several witnesses to the opposite. That one of the witnesses was someone who didn’t like me. And that what really happened was I calmly asked him to leave my workspace after he’d returned for the third time to demand I hurry up fixing something his team broke.
I was still told to watch it.
So I get it when people hold back on reporting, I really, really, sincerely do.
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It’s only a “personal peeve” in that anyone would be PEEVED at being targeted by someone purposefully trying to be a jerk to you.
Oh for sure. But my question wasn’t whether we’ve the right to feel annoyed and frustrated - of course we do. In fact we’ve the right to feel… whatever we feel, whether it’s justified (and it would be in this case) or not.
What I was asking is whether this is reportable. I’ll bring up a reason for it in the next paragraph of why that’s relevant, in my opinion of course.
Reporting incidents always carries with it the risk of making the accuser look like a part of the problem. This is doubly true if they become known as a serial reporter, which itself only takes a track record of having reported at least one other incident.
That’s it. Reporting isn’t always a behavior the victim engages in. It can also be weaponized. Cherry-picking minor things, perhaps unintentional episodes, to create a certain narrative. ‘Kestrel said something about sports on a channel that one time after I asked for RP’, ‘Kestrel asked a question on a channel that other time after I started talking about my day’. Even if each instance was completely coincidental a determined abuser could build up a case over time.
And now @Kestrel is the problem.
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@Kestrel is the problem.
Coincidentally, I have also marked this down as my chosen epitaph.
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It can also be weaponized
You’re right. A player could potentially weaponize reports. It’s an ugly and murky area that every staffer should be aware of. I’m not sure what the solution is there other than a general ‘know your players’ attitude from staff.
And that sure as hell doesn’t cover it all. But in my personal experience the vast majority of players are not attempting to weaponize reports. Some folks might have a more finely tuned ‘fuck no’ button than others, but they’re not malicious.
@KarmaBum and myself were real briefly talking yesterday about something kind of related to ‘know your players’. Basically, what a different experience it is to attempt to sanely wrangle a large group versus some of the smaller games. And like, once your number of players goes up enough it’s almost impossible to know everyone.
Anyway rabble rabble
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@Arkandel Everyone knows that anything can be weaponized. That’s where trust in staff comes in. Are they capable of hearing about discomfort without needing to crush it under “are you sure its not just in your head?” no matter how nicely phrased? Do they care to receive tidbits and keep an eye on thing over time? If they’re not trustworthy with stuff like that or don’t care to community manage then that’s valuable information to know so that you know its on you to walk if things edge into too much. If they are, then it makes more of an environment where people can share minor stuff that can head some problems off at the pass. Not perfectly. But that’s important info too. Not everyone will feel comfortable playing on a game where staff encourages people to speak up if something made them uncomfortable even if it doesn’t rise to the level of harassment.
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The fear of being seen as The Whiner is real. I’ve avoided reporting things that seemed non-reportable - constant and intentional passive aggressiveness, for instance - because I didn’t want to seem like a complainer who was out to get someone. Only to later find out that knowing that would have been valuable to staff.
When I started on Arx, a player pressured me to TS and then when I declined IC with reference to her sexuality he said, OOC, that maybe the right dick would fix her. I didn’t report this, because I had invited him to my room (to look at a painting we had been discussing!) so it was probably my fault and what else would I have expected. It wasn’t like he paged me out of nowhere. @sao (lovingly) bullied me into reporting and he was banned like 10 minutes later - in part because someone else had also reported him being borderline creepy but not instabannable. Would he have been banned if there wasn’t already a report about something more minor? I don’t know!
After several years, I know and trust Arx staff enough to report and let them decide what to do with it, but only because I have gotten to know them and I’m pretty sure they know I wouldn’t report maliciously. But there’s no way I’d do that immediately on a new game. It’s a tricky line to walk, for sure.
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When I started on Arx, a player pressured me to TS and then when I declined IC with reference to her sexuality he said, OOC, that maybe the right dick would fix her.
Fucking hell. The complete lack of self-awareness.
I don't know what I'm doing. Poke at Seven Nations sevennations.aresmush.com port 2021
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It’s only a “personal peeve” in that anyone would be PEEVED at being targeted by someone purposefully trying to be a jerk to you.
Oh for sure. But my question wasn’t whether we’ve the right to feel annoyed and frustrated - of course we do. In fact we’ve the right to feel… whatever we feel, whether it’s justified (and it would be in this case) or not.
What I was asking is whether this is reportable. I’ll bring up a reason for it in the next paragraph of why that’s relevant, in my opinion of course.
I was answering your question, I wasn’t answering that someone has the right to feel justified. I was saying that calling the behavior described a “peeve” makes it sound like – idk, someone doing a thing that’s not really targeted at you, but you just find annoying. I’m saying this scenario is not a peeve; it’s a purposeful, targeted behavior. Not a huge one, but if it’s done so regularly and consistently, it’s not an accident.
So yes, I was saying it’s reportable, because the consistency of the pattern indicates that it’s purposeful.
Reporting incidents always carries with it the risk of making the accuser look like a part of the problem. This is doubly true if they become known as a serial reporter, which itself only takes a track record of having reported at least one other incident.
That’s it. Reporting isn’t always a behavior the victim engages in. It can also be weaponized. Cherry-picking minor things, perhaps unintentional episodes, to create a certain narrative. ‘Kestrel said something about sports on a channel that one time after I asked for RP’, ‘Kestrel asked a question on a channel that other time after I started talking about my day’. Even if each instance was completely coincidental a determined abuser could build up a case over time.
And now @Kestrel is the problem.
The ability for something to be weaponized has no bearing on whether or not an incident is reportable. Kestrel is talking about something slightly off to the side – that maybe something is reportable in an objective sense, but someone still may not feel comfortable reporting it. These are two different questions.
@Testament said in Bannings:
When I started on Arx, a player pressured me to TS and then when I declined IC with reference to her sexuality he said, OOC, that maybe the right dick would fix her.
Fucking hell. The complete lack of self-awareness.
That’s not a lack of self-awareness; it’s purposeful. The ugliness, the causing of discomfort, is the point.
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@Testament I mean, it’s a very common male response to lesbians in RL. I’ve heard it before. But it is absolutely still super fucking gross and idiotic.
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Being able to do that with warning signs is so important. I’ve never had a major incident on Arx but I believe that I would be able to stay even if I did because of the comfort level of being listened to over the minor/not flagrant rule breaking stuff.
Nothing to do with me, but it’s still really nice to see this said about a game. Any game, tbh!
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The reason I mentioned the channel behavior was specifically because it’s something generally innocuous and inoffensive (talking on channel) turned into a weapon of exclusion that’s part of a long term problem that typically does not get dealt with, but absolutely chases people off games. I find it interesting that this, being a KNOWN tactic of one of the worst people in the hobby, that the validity of it even being a problem is debated.
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@Testament in my experiences dealing with people like that they’re very aware of what they’re doing, which is trying to pressure someone into crossing boundaries they don’t want to.
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This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staff’s role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
Staff has no role in micromanaging personal peeves.
They DO have a role in dealing with microagressions.
I agree with your first statement - this IS a microagression, and staff sure can handle it. I wouldn’t or ban someone over this. What I’d do is have a conversation with them about the behavior, without ascribing intent. This is happening, it needs to not happen. It doesn’t actually matter what they intend, and that way you can short circuit a lot of defensiveness. Just ‘great, I’m glad you’re not doing it on purpose. Now I just need you to be aware and not let it happen on accident, either.’
If they change their behavior, great. If they don’t, then I’d ban them for continuing to behave in a way that they were asked not to, because it was harmful. That, to me, says something clear about actual intent.
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This kind of microaggression is definitely frustrating and it sucks to be its subject. However what about it is sanctionable? How much of it is reportable?
In other words what would a proper escalation to staff look like? And more specifically what is staff’s role here, as it seems there would be a line - somewhere - that separates administrating a game from having to micromanage personal peeves?
At some point, it has to become a vibes-based decision. I mean, we could sit down and try to create a formula by which to determine how many instances changing the subject over what period of time constitute an actionable pattern, but at that point we’re trying to moderate by algorithm, deflecting staff responsibility onto The System. It has to be okay to turn around and say to the kids in the back seat, “Yes, I know you’re not actually touching your sister, but you know the purpose of the rule isn’t that touching her is the one and only forbidden action.”
I think this mindset comes from a belief that rules should be about negative enforcement rather than positive; i.e., forbidding certain behaviors rather than creating expectations of what you should do. There’s a subtle difference between telling someone “Don’t be a jerk” and “Be respectful of others.”
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If they change their behavior, great. If they don’t, then I’d ban them for continuing to behave in a way that they were asked not to, because it was harmful.
This is the #1 reason we ban people from the library. Not because of the initial thing they were doing that we had to ask them to stop doing (no mask, playing music without headphones, drinking alcohol, yelling, whatever) but because they don’t do what we ask. The vast majority of ban violations are “Failing to comply with the reasonable direction of a staff member.” Idk what my point is, here, but it seemed relevant when I started writing.
There’s a subtle difference between telling someone “Don’t be a jerk” and “Be respectful of others.”
Very true. Humans (and dogs, tbh) are much better at following positive instructions. That’s why you tell kids “walk please” instead of “don’t run”.
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At some point, it has to become a vibes-based decision.
Honestly? At every point. Even looking down the barrel of logs and screenshots, you’re still gonna have to make a decision based on your instincts.
I’m not sure people grasp how much even the most flippant of us wind up agonizing over these decisions sometimes. “I don’t want to make a big deal out of this” is probably the most common phrase people say to me when they want to put someone on my radar, and that’s sort of a sad state of affairs. Even on GH, which was a hot mess, we only ever got a handful of actual complaints about behavior from people; most people who are getting harassed just leave rather than go through the whole process of reporting someone.
The only false report I’ve ever gotten on any game, to my knowledge, was from Ruiz. Who went right for the throat with a job to complain about the person it turned out she was harassing. Neither player got banned over it, though the other player eventually quit.
^ See above re: wrong way on a decision before. I should’ve banned Ruiz right then (or at least shortly afterward when her creepiness started to twig @bear_necessities), but no one had receipts and it felt somehow wrong to ban someone just because my co-admin thought they were creepy.
Which is just the dumbest rationale I’ve ever used, and it embarrasses me to this day.
tl;dr - be a good admin and swing the ban-hammer freely till you achieve the desired PEACE & QUIET
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tl;dr - be a good admin and swing the ban-hammer freely till you achieve the desired PEACE & QUIET
lol lmao
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Which is just the dumbest rationale I’ve ever used, and it embarrasses me to this day.
Idk if this any consolation or not, but as a person very picky about where I’ll play certain characters because I’m deeply neurotic, I’m comfortable playing them in a space you organize.
