What's written on the box

[Wuff]

There’s lies, damned lies, and ‘In game screen shots’ before release.

[Gashlycrumb]

@Warma-Sheen said in What's written on the box:

Five.

I don’t think most games or advertisements intend to lie. They just rarely match the experience some players are having.

I think you’re right.

I don’t give any Fogertys of credence to things I think are probably wrong, regardless of intent. But I’m definitely gullible compared to other posters here.

[mietze]

I don’t know.

I think I’ve seen too many people read whatever they want into things. So I actually don’t put much stock in an advertising blurb other than just a taste of genre/basics. Website maybe a little more, but how current/often is the website updated? Some places are practically live, others aren’t.

I find log postings to be a better indicator of types of RP/rp quality/STing than anything else. I also rely on the “feel” I experience when logging in.

I really don’t know that there’s any value in blasting a staff for the game experience not being what you thought it would be based on a couple of paragraphs of an ad. And I’ve seen some kind of…bratty? behavior on channel, when people insist that really any <insert system or theme> game MUST have X and Y in it, and getting kind of bratty if that particular game doesn’t. Because how can/dare you have <Theme> game without X and Y! We also see it in how someone might toss up an idea for a game and have in shredded within minutes because it doesn’t have elements that Shredder thinks should be there, so of course it’s boring/worthless. When half the time I don’t even get why that’s so essential to begin with.

So yeah, I guess in certain circumstances you might be the asshole if you assumed things not named on the box would be in there, and go full No True Scotsman. I guess someone COULD actually lie on an ad/website. Like if they said it was going to be a world of darkness place, but instead you’re stuck riding around with military PCs on this weird ship called Battlestar Galactica. Or if it was billed as Sentient Cactus Poke-n-Grope Swingers Gardening Club and instead it’s uhhhh actually Deep Sea Jellyfish Eunuchs Jiggling Club.

[Pavel]

At least in my experience dealing with game advertising, the advert write-up doesn’t often say very much. Setting, genre, maybe what game engine/system it’s using (like your WoDs or your Fates etc.), so I’ve found it more helpful to ask questions when one can, otherwise you’ll put on your own expectations much like @mietze explained.

It’s not entirely “trust but verify” but it’s close, I suppose. I’d rather look like an idiot by asking a question to which the answer seems obvious than be disappointed.

[Gashlycrumb]

I was thinking more the scale and type like:

homepage/advert: This is a ‘Starship Troopers’ MUSH with a focus on Mobile Infantry actions. Support characters such as pilots, researchers, military hospital staff and starship crew are also welcome.

So you make an infantryman character, and then find that there aren’t really any infantry actions, it’s all pilots dodging those giant bombadier beetles and dropping bombs from space.

[Pavel]

@Gashlycrumb Yeah, that happens frequently enough to be a problem. It’s why people still ask “so what concepts are you guys looking for” kind of questions, and why the “make whatever you want to make” answer is fucking useless.

[mietze]

@Gashlycrumb I’ve seen that kind of thing happen before almost exactly on a few Battlestar places. The intent and structure was there to support both, but the people willing to run things leaned one way or the other and it wasn’t quite in balance.

I don’t think the creators lied, and they definitely WANTED both. But sometimes who makes what has an impact on a game. Especially when people are needed to step up and run things.

[mietze]

@Pavel yeah I wish people were not so afraid/disdainful of that question. It’s an honest one most of the time, though even there it’s sometimes hard to parse what is meant by it. So I understand why people are leery of it, but I’d say it’s just the beginning of a valuable conversation.

What concepts are you looking for could mean: what don’t you have a lot of that you want to round out your vision of your game/what would go well with the population now (which could be vastly different experiences for the player!)

And if you were looking for easy meshing things with existing players then being directed towards a so far underpopulated and not super supportive hole would very much not be helpful, even if staff’s genuine intent is to have broad scope game/have that hole filled!

[Gashlycrumb]

I find the trouble with the ‘what kind of characters are you looking for?’ is you’ll get directed to what’s on the box, because that’s the official intent even if the game has really already moved on to be about space-battles and most people are diggin’ it. (Unless you ask a friend who already plays that game.)

[icanbeyourmuse]

@Pavel said in What's written on the box:

@Gashlycrumb Yeah, that happens frequently enough to be a problem. It’s why people still ask “so what concepts are you guys looking for” kind of questions, and why the “make whatever you want to make” answer is fucking useless.

I /hate/ this answer. So much. Along with its cousin ‘Make what you would have fun on.’ I want to make something people would find useful in the stuff going on. @Testament was GREAT when I was asking what was wanted for Seven Nations. I explained why I wanted ideas (I play better at something people want over my random whims and want to help others show off their characters). Nothing puts me off a game more than people using ‘Play what you want’ when I ask what the game is looking for. It puts me off far more than not-really newbie friendly, people not really chatting and welcoming. I wouldn’t be asking if I knew what I wanted or something!

[Gashlycrumb]

@mietze said in What's written on the box:

What concepts are you looking for could mean: what don’t you have a lot of that you want to round out your vision of your game/what would go well with the population now (which could be vastly different experiences for the player!)

This! Hah. I can’t honestly remember if I answered that question with “This and that faction are the most active, the other one and the other other one are ones I have GMly ideas about and want to populate more,” but I will make a note to do so in future.

[L. B. Heuschkel]

You had me at using John Fogerty.

[Herja]

In my experience, I have found that it doesn’t matter how I answer the question of ‘What does the game need right now?’ in terms of characters because my answer has no effect on the longevity of the character or the quality of the game experience. I have given players really important and interesting (to me) hooks that they then never did a thing with. I’ve seen people pick up characters that have no introductory hooks and play them for years.

It’s why I rarely answer questions about which roster a player should pick up because it never seems to matter how many hooks a player has if they cannot connect to the character. If I don’t know you or know what you like to play, then any suggestion I make isn’t really going to be that valuable to the player, so I answer that question with exactly “Play whatever you find interesting and we can make story for you.” Also, it feels like putting a degree of the mental ‘labor’ of making the choice of what kind of character to play on me with a lot of expectation about what their experience is going to be like. It feels like a set up for a bad time for both of us.

Also, I have ADHD. I can barely deal with my own decision paralysis much less anyone else’s.

[spiriferida]

As a potential player I’d find it useful for a gamerunner to at least tell me “here’s some of our active character types and orgs, if you’re looking for some ideas to get started,” if I’ve asked about what character types they need. That way I can start looking for useful hooks, whether I want to join those active groups or play some countering force to those.

I also generally don’t look for the box label to tell me what the game actually is, though, I go straight for logs and such.

[Meg]

@Herja said in What's written on the box:

Also, I have ADHD. I can barely deal with my own decision paralysis much less anyone else’s.

I do find it a little unfair to classify this question as decision paralysis! I rarely get decision paralysis and I still ask about what people would like to see on the grid/what they need, etc.

But yeah, I stopped doing that in my last couple games when I did RP. Because yeah, the question doesn’t have a big impact on the story you get or even the game, because if you pick up something that people say they want, they may actually just want the representation versus the reality.

It’s about doing interesting, in the end. For the player, and for the game. Make something interesting, tell a story.

[Herja]

@Meg I wasn’t seriously saying that anyone who asks me about what character they should pick up has decision paralysis. I was just trying to make a self-deprecating joke.

[Meg]

@Herja Sorry! It did come off jokey but I NEEDED TO STATE. (i guess i didn’t need to.)

[KarmaBum]

@Herja said in What's written on the box:

If I don’t know you or know what you like to play, then any suggestion I make isn’t really going to be that valuable to the player

My experience with this is that people who ask “what should I play?” often already have an answer in mind, and are just looking to shuffle you into validating it.

“What should I play?”
“Oh, we have a very active group of assassins that could use a few more ninjas. Or we have an up-and-coming plot about magical goats that could use someone who works with animals.”
“Cool, I was thinking I might like to play a 19 y/o bartender who runs a podcast on the side. Can you help me fit that in?”

[DrQuinn]

@KarmaBum Obviously they run their podcast about their secret ninja assassin activities.

PROBLEM SOLVED.

[Roadspike]

Whenever working on a game, I try really hard to encourage staff to put together a mission statement for the game and tie everything back to it. If they’ve done that, then hopefully their advertising does actually represent gameplay experience (well, the general gameplay experience, @Warma-Sheen’s note that everyone’s experience is different is well-taken).

But for any game that doesn’t have a mission statement front and center, I tend to be a little wary of what their advert says, especially if it sounds perfect for me. I look at their theme files, their forum posts, and if it’s FS3, their skill/scan.

Sometimes, like @hellfrog said, things just get away from the game runners, because players will play what they find interesting, and a single playgroup with its own thoughts can totally tilt a game away from its design. But usually I assume that the front page and advertisement are what staff wants the game to be. Then it’s just important to see if that’s what it really is.

On the sidenote that is “what do you folks need?” and “play what you like,” I used to be really annoyed by the question, and lean hard into that exact response. I did it because a) if a player likes what they’re playing, they’re more likely to stick with it and enjoy it, and b) I was assuming they were reading the mission statement and theme files to know that they’re playing what the game is designed for. I still think that point a) is accurate, but I know enough to know that point b) usually isn’t. With that in mind, I generally aim to answer a similar question: “what concepts would fit in well with the game,” which is different than “what do you folks need” but close, in my opinion. Which usually gets a response like what @Gashlycrumb said:

“This and that faction are the most active, the other one and the other other one are ones I have GMly ideas about and want to populate more,”