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Making it Easier to Nope Out (or should we?)
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Happy Monday!
The premise/scope for this discussion is a little muddied, because I think there’s a few topics here to discuss that I don’t see a clear way to untangle.
BUT, I’m going to define noping out as walking away from a SITUATION (IC or OOC) that is causing [unpleasantness] without having to go into huge amounts of detail about why the SITUATION (IC or OOC) is [unpleasant].
- What’s the threshold that should be a guidepost? Hangnail or broken bone, so to speak?
- How do we avoid it being used as a get out of jail free card? Do we actually care?
- What can/should staff on a game do to make it easier for folks?
- What can we as mushers do when we aren’t staff to make it easier for other mushers to ‘nope out’ in personal interactions?
For an example, the X-Card is one way to do what I’m talking about, though we don’t have an easy go-to for this in the mush environment:
https://geekdad.com/2016/10/dd-for-young-dms-x-card/
(link not thoroughly vetted; I looked at it long enough to confirm it’s talking about the concept I’m talking about)We sort of use RPPREFS this way, and Shang has its +kinks system that has an ‘absolutely do not go’ list. Those also sort of touch on this.
I know @Jumpscare has been doing some REALLY good work along these lines with their game, too. This is not a demand for elaboration from you or anything, just an acknowledgment of the work you’ve been doing.
Thoughts?
the entity previously known as Sunny
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I’d have to think about it more, but my first take is that anyone can nope out at any time for any reason with or without explanation. If they use it as a get out of jail free card, well, don’t play with them again. I do think, however, that the burden is on the noper-outer to let others know if something is a nope for them (in a situation where they want to continue, but without the spiders, etc). If they wanna just bail without explanation that’s totally legit, but there’s no burden on the other participants to change their behavior. All staff can do is encourage a culture that respects people’s ability to bow out of scenes/plots/relationships/OOC contact.
This is all assuming that the content being noped isn’t something obviously nopeworthy. Don’t spring assault or child murder (this apparently has to be said so I guess it’s not obvious) or bigotry on people.
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@IoleRae this is a good question.
My first thought is that you should be free to Nope on camera on just about anything. Even mild unpleasantness. Like… we should not have to rp anything that isn’t fun. But that doesn’t mean that the IC thing doesn’t happen, it just means the camera eye goes somewhere else. It’s a different inquiry if you just… don’t want to deal with something existing entirely in the landscape of the world.
Like, I don’t wanna deal with mind control/mind alteration plots where something goes into the brain through the nose or ear. You would be surprised how often this squick comes up. All loss of agency messes with my aaaah a little, particularly in brainwashing / memory alteration, and I have had small games literally start tagging this stuff on ares logs “not safe for sao” because I’m a goddamn wimp about it. But if it’s in through the ear or the nose my soul just leaves my body and I cannot. The last time this came up, the GM just quickly changed what they were using to do the thing and it was fine.
But I have definitely felt extremely self conscious about measures my fellow players have taken to protect me. I have ZERO idea how to actually make it ok to express nopes in a way that an anxious player won’t be anxious about. Because anxiety is basically my life I guess?
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Everybody has to nope sometimes for various reasons. I do think when you do it, whether because of meatspace emergency or headspace unease, you need to take the responsibility of contacting others in the scene to establish what did happen so there isn’t any whiff of that ‘get out of jail free’ avoidance of consequences shit I see people bray so hard about whenever this subject comes up.
For me personally, if I’m fleeing a scene because it’s triggering me or digging up trauma unexpectedly, I also need to get away for a spell BEFORE discussing whatever actions and consequences are going to happen. In the moment, all I want is the fuck away and it’s not going to end well if I try to rationally hash out what was done in the faded scene on the spot.
With that said, I don’t think I’ve ever actually sent an OOC ping to someone expressing a need to GTFO right the fuck now - my ‘normal’ method of handling uncomfortable scenes, whether uncomfortable because the subject has strayed into a mental minefield or the participation has grown to encompass people I have mental no-contact orders established with, is to look for some opening, ANY non-ridiculous opening, where I can emote my PC just bouncing. I’d prefer not to deal with OOC explanations where I can avoid it because it always somehow seems to devolve into misinterpretation, whispering and drama.
Me: Hey, so, I didn’t realize you were going to drown rats in the barrel in the back alley, so I’m going to have to tap out and fade. LMK what else went down and what input you need to determine how my PC slotted into it.
Them: Sure thing, bro, no harm no foul! We’ll sort it out in notes when you have time!
Also Them, on some shitty Discord server: Me is SUCH a fucking snowflake and TOTALLY KNEW that scene was a rat-drowning scene and now that people know she’s part of the Rat-Drowners Gang she wants to pretend it never happened. Nobody should RP with her ever again!
It feels like damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t territory in a lot of ways.
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When I was younger “omg ica=icc!!!” was far more important to me.
These days if someone needs to bail on a scene for whatever reason I choose to give it grace. There’s no joy for me in forcing someone into play that they don’t want. If they seem to be avoiding consequences that are serious I just hand that over to staff. If it’s something that is going to linger in its ic effects for me then I just do the best I can and if I think the other person might cause problems i will just give staff a heads up as to why my ic action is that way and listen to their guidance when or if it comes. When i am feeling at the end of my rope I will try to tweak things a bit to make things more bearable, but if I’m starting to get truly upset then i will just make my ic excuses and leave.
For example, one of the things that totally kills my enthusiasm for a scene is when somebody decides to metapose what my pc is doing/feeling without my permission and is really actually wrong. Instant joykiller for me. Sometimes I can get it back by ignoring that person and concentrating on other folks, if that’s not possible I will often have my pc respond as if they can glean what that pc is assuming due to body language and expression and respond to that in my own poses. Some of the time that’s enough of a pop that person won’t do that again as it’s jarring for them to have someone respond, and also that helps my feeling of agency if that makes sense. But if either I don’t feel comfortable with that or I just don’t want to, I will just have pc be uncomfortable and bail or get drawn away, ect.
And if it happens frequently I just won’t seek them out for rp from them again.
I think joykiller nope out are a little different from content nope outs at least for me. Content i feel comfortable saying “hey guys can we back this up a bit in graphic depiction/I would like to step out, I didn’t realize this content was going to be in here and I’m very uncomfortable but don’t want to nix anything you’re excited about!”
When it comes to chosen player behavior that’s making me nope out then I’m less comfortable asking for changes because people are allowed to have different playstyles and unless there is a connection there or feedback has been invited i dont want to impose… Oddly I don’t have a problem with and will often invite others proactively to say hey if I need to be more serious/less serious/ect then please let me know if I dont read the room right. I don’t know why I don’t feel comfortable asking other people to accommodate me unless I know that it’s okay to do so when I know I don’t mind when the shoe is on the other foot.
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As a storyteller, part of making it easier to nope out is to warn for common triggers ahead of time so that players can make the choice to engage from the start. I also don’t penalize players for needing to walk away from a scene at any point. I’ve had players need to leave a couple of times or send me a page to let me know about a trigger.
I think it gets a little trickier when the thing that someone wants to avoid is something that they absolutely brought on themselves. If someone doesn’t like RP where they are reprimanded for bad behavior ICly, then I would say that they need to take the responsibility to not engage in that sort of play in the first place. I’m not going to keep anyone in any sort of scene that they don’t wanna RP, but if you are doing things to bring specific consequences upon your PC, then those are going to play out even if we aren’t doing it on screen.
An example I would give is if you are playing a PC in a group that is very traditional and decide to make them an iconoclast that works against the ideals of the group and makes things ICly difficult for the leadership of that group (an it is often an OOC headache as well). If those actions then get you removed from the group ICly, you are free not to play out the scene in which that consequence is given, but the consequence still stands in your every day play. You are still not part of the group whether it happened ‘on screen’ or not.
Regardless of reasoning, whether someone is noping out because they are uncomfortable or triggered or just doing it to avoid a scene they don’t want to have, I think those nopes need to be respected.
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Thinking more on get out of jail free: it’s very possible to have ICC without engaging with it directly, in a lot of cases. For instance: I hate Arx duels. They stress me tf out and I live in terror of getting challenged. But one day I realized that should it happen, I can nope out of rping a duel without trying to get out of the duel. It can happen off-camera with agreed or rolled results, or it can happen as an event that I don’t plan and don’t attend. I never have to RP about duels at all, in fact, in order to still have ICConsequences of being challenged.
Caveats being 1. it’s likely not everything can be resolved in some other non-involvement way. 2. people trying to get out of jail free will find ways to get out of non-involved consequences, too
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I haven’t often observed noping out in a way that I thought was to dodge consequences such as maiming or death, so I guess I’ve just generally had good luck in that regard. Most I’ve had to deal with was someone being not-so-graceful in the face of a coded combat competition that would decide the outcome of a tournament, and having it go… rather disastrously against them.
The negative emotions they were feeling at the time meant they had to flee the scene before their character bit even hit the ground. I felt horribly guilty for that, and then frustrated at the time, because instead of a fun little event, I just felt awful for inadvertently causing someone to feel shame and discomfort. At the time? Oof, I internalized their feelings, and it made it hard to finish out the scene.
But… with a dose of time added to the mix, I think I can look back and say, “That person got so frustrated/embarrassed that they had to remove themselves from the situation. They had it far worse than me, as they hit their threshold.”
So in that sense, I’m now glad they elected to nope out, as they clearly needed to do exactly that. Did it no-sell me? Sure. But they protected themself.
I do advocate for noping out, so long as it’s well-communicated.
@mietze said in Making it Easier to Nope Out (or should we?):
When I was younger “omg ica=icc!!!” was far more important to me.
Same. This has dulled considerably with time for me, too. I’d like to think the hobby is getting more empathy for the poor sods typing the words into the text boxes, nowadays, as the average age drifts upward. Not to say that younger hobbyists aren’t capable of empathy, but more that I find that older hobbyists are generally more prepared to display empathy.
To steal a quote I like:
“You’ve faced several life-or-death situations. That doesn’t make you an adult. Finding more fallen-out hairs on your pillow, watching your favorite stuffed bread disappear from the convenience store. The accumulation of those little despairs is what makes a person an adult.”
I think the same is true of empathy. As you drift through life accumulating despairs, both little and large, you become a more mature entity - because you’re that much more likely to be able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes.
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To be fair, the only reason I even mentioned ‘using it to get around IC consequences’ is because trying to have this discussion almost always results in a ‘but somebody could CHEAT IT by PRETENDING to be upset’ derail. I haven’t seen somebody attempt to dodge consequences this way in a really, really, really long time.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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No, no, I think that was appropriate. It’s usually what we all thought/think, isn’t it? Someone yanking their modem or something because their HP is at 5 and damage is about to be handed down. Whether or not that ever actually happens.
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I HAVE seen people fake RL emergencies to get out of consequences of their IC actions, and I have seen it in recent memory, but generally speaking … it just led me not to trust that player or engage with them meaningfully. RL is obviously more important than IC. But it does happen – I don’t think it’s exactly the same as a nope for a trigger, though.
let it be a challenge to you
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Are we talking about FTB an uncomfortable scene?
Or are we talking about retconning an uncomfortable storyline?
If someone wants to step away from a scene for whatever reason, I am fine with that. Whether it’s because they find the content squicky or because their dog just stepped on a bee (that shit happens, trust me), people gotta go sometimes.
If we’re talking about someone asking to vacate a storyline or retcon multiple scenes, my threshold is a little higher, and it may not be what feels “easy” to some people - but that may be a necessary evil in this hobby. Sometimes, established RP cannot be undone. The person doesn’t have to continue to RP, but they may have to concede some points to wrap up the storyline, depending on how involved it is.
And that’s just never going to be easy for some people.
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When I think of “nope out” I’m thinking of something that happens like immediately. Kind of like a mic drop? You don’t mic drop now out of a discussion you had 6 months ago (unless it’s in your own head, dang those late comebacks!) So in my comments above I’m talking about how someone leaves a scene/content in progress at that moment. It shouldn’t have a huge retroactive impact on many people outside those in that scene.
So I would consider something like total removal of an entire wing of plot across a game to be highly disruptive and I think my bar for that is a lot higher than most, tbh, especially if people can avoid RPing about it personally with no consequence. Also not a fan of people mocking people for avoiding certain content OR implying that anyone who doesn’t is a horrible person. Both of those are way out of line, but they do happen.
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I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to retcon a scene because people have decided they don’t want to deal with the ICC of my character reacting thematically to things they have done or said, because I’ve literally lost count of the times it’s happened, but I definitely wasn’t thinking about those in the context of nopes; rather, it’s when playing out the ICC happens off cam, like we don’t wanna rp apology, penance, duel, interrobang, yet another rp about authority figure exercising authority over wilful subordinate–
Another example. I DON’T WANNA RP ABOUT BEING SICK. I have spent too much of my adult life sick in one way or another, I do not want it to be part of my rp. If there’s a plague plot, I either want to not get sick or to keep my character being sick entirely off camera. It doesn’t mean my character is never sick, it just means I don’t wanna.
I think I don’t wanna should always be a valid rp excuse.
let it be a challenge to you
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@sao I agree! I think i don’t wanna should be that. If someone is I DON’T WANNA-ing in a way that is starting to really inconvenience storylines or keeps on happening, people will figure that out and can neutrally opt out of engaging.
Ok there was a whole other facet to this topic. I think it should be easier if it’s not easy somewhere. The way I see it, even if you are frustrated or disappointed or whatever at someone not wanting to play something out, there’s no way to get satisfying rp from someone if they…aren’t into it. Might as well just move on.
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I feel strongly that no player should have to ‘play through’ something on screen that makes the game unfun. You don’t have to give a reason, you just say either ‘can we skip the details’ or ‘I’m not having a good time here, so MYPC is going to fade into the background’. That doesn’t mean that what’s happening ICly stops, but no player should have to play through it if they’re not okay with it.
If you want to change events as they are unfolding IC because the consequences of those events are going to be unfun, I do believe that it’s on the player to a) tell people, and b) propose an alternative that meets the needs of all players in the scene, not just yours. I’m not a huge fan of people going “Oh, then I never said that,” when the issue isn’t that they didn’t OOC understand that was a Bad Idea, but that the Consequences ended up not being what they expected and now they want it to never have happened - usually when other people have had to Deal With Their Shit for several scenes already.
And, inevitably, are going to do this exact same thing two weeks later, either with someone different, OR with the exact same person. Protestations of ignorance only get you so far, I feel.
But, honestly? That’s an OOC player problem, and needs to be dealt with by staff telling the problem player to knock it off or be uninvited. It should not be something PCs have to handle IC.
In general, if someone says ‘hey, this isn’t fun’, then I am super open to dropping it. What I tend to push back on is ‘hey, this isn’t fun, so I need your PC to do X thing and not Y’.
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@sao said in Making it Easier to Nope Out (or should we?):
I HAVE seen people fake RL emergencies to get out of consequences of their IC actions, and I have seen it in recent memory, but generally speaking … it just led me not to trust that player or engage with them meaningfully. RL is obviously more important than IC. But it does happen – I don’t think it’s exactly the same as a nope for a trigger, though.
Seen that one multiple times with the same player which leaves you in this horrible place as the consequences side going - am I a monster for not believing the 4th time this has happened?
I think that people tend to assume that the scene where the consequences are being discussed is just going to be several hours of being yelled at, rather than a cooperative roleplay scene or a growth opportunity for the character(s). From my own experience, when I’ve played a character that’s got into some trouble, it has been just that. Sit there, get yelled at for an hour, and here’s your pre-written resignation letter you are signing. Is that fun? Not really. Could do without the pomp and ceremony.
Other times these have been pretty good scenes, made me pause and think - oh how would the character react? Justify it? Would they even do that?
Do I think people should be able to avoid IC consequences? Nope
Do I think people should be able to handwave a scene where it’s 2 hours of a character yelling at another character? Yeah, probably.
Anyway that’s all about noping out over consequences rather than themes. I’ve liked games with X-Cards or a Veil-Card (very similar, a loosely described fade to black rather than a full stop) since it helps people feel comfortable in engaging with a story as widely as possible.
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@IoleRae said in Making it Easier to Nope Out (or should we?):
How do we avoid it being used as a get out of jail free card? Do we actually care?
This one is one of the easier ones for me to speak on.
It’s never a get out of jail free card. It is a not have to roleplay this card, and that’s all. You may not have to RP out the consequences of your actions, but your actions will have consequences.
For instance, you won’t have to RP out torture, or suffering of that sort, but your character still went through that. People will still know your character did X action that had Y consequence.
The only thing you’re getting out of is having to sit through an experience you don’t want to (for any reason) partake in. I don’t TS all that much anymore, so I don’t RP the sex but it still happens.
ETA: To continue my thought, if the only consequences for action are things that a player can’t/won’t/don’t want to participate in or even acknowledge then you need to come up with other consequences with the same kind of story impact without the problems. And if a game is oriented around problematic consequences (either generally or specifically problematic to you), you may want to reconsider your time there.
