Wikibara’s allegations
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I don’t know who any of the people in this involved are. Not the staff, not the accused, not the accuser, not this poster I’m replying to now, nor what events transpired.
@voiceinthevoid said in Antisemitism allegedly:
It also doesn’t make the Jewish people look great to say this dishonestly and can actually increase antisemitism.
But this sentence reads incredibly suspicious to me.
EDIT: FWIW, @voiceinthevoid & I ended up talking things through in DMs after this exchange, and I do believe that the post is authentic in its intentions. I appreciate the good faith & empathy extended in both editing the title and understanding where the suspicion was coming from.
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I just don’t like with all the current rising antisemitism someone making the accusation in bad faith. He did not bring any evidence whatsoever and even later when people dug into such said his allegation was an accident. An accident he didn’t appear to apologize for and still left some of the implication hanging.
This is a difficult topic and maybe going beyond the scope of this board,
That being said I think most people here can and will separate one person being a jerk from an entire people.
I was not sure about going into this much detail about exactly why his comment upset me which is maybe why the sentence was unclear. I hope this posts clarifies part of the reason for me being unsettled by the implied allegation.
There is more to this though. I worry that too many flippant vague “accidental” accusations can be like crying wolf and increase the difficulty of reporting if staff or players on a game are really being antisemitic. It could encourage antisemitics to
Join game thinking maybe staff will support them and could keep good players away.He also implied very off hand as if it was a small trivial part of his larger complaint of difficult character generation when if it was real imo it would be the primary issue.
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Let us reframe that sentence into the following contexts:
“It also doesn’t make women look great to throw around false rape allegations, and can actually increase misogyny.”
“It also doesn’t make black people look great to play the race-card, and can actually increase white supremacy.”
I can’t be certain that you are who you say you are, and I will state plainly that I feel no compulsion to take at face value a post by a day-old account that, seemingly, created the account and posted solely for the purpose of discrediting an allegation of antisemitism.
But I will say that I take issue with this framing, that lying Jews cause antisemitism. Antisemites cause antisemitism. This sentence is either internalised racism, or dishonest in authorial intent.
Maybe it also really was an honest mistake to have created a whole new thread, and the intention was to reply directly to the comments in context. But I really wish this board didn’t now have a whole thread titled “Antisemitism Allegedly” about how, allegedly, allegations of antisemitism cannot be trusted. Did this need to be a topic here?
Maybe Wikibara really is a liar, I don’t know, I don’t know him from Adam. Maybe this is an attempt to discredit a game unfairly, I don’t know, I’ve never played it.
But this thread sets me on edge. If you’re being honest about why you made it, then hopefully you can understand why some people taking an interest in this topic might be on edge.
Because I have receipts I will gladly post of Actual Nazis in this hobby privately admitting in their crusty little Actual Nazi discord servers that they enjoy making false flag posts in the MU* community meant to stir up shit of this nature.
If your intentions are honest, then I really am sorry for what you and your family are going through.
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I didn’t mean to make a new thread. I’m
A known player and not hiding. -
I also don’t know the context beyond this thread and I’m going to take the thread as it reads. However, I’m going to drop my opinion. You don’t have to agree, but I feel the need to state it.
We don’t apologize for racism or anything in that vein.
The person who read the statement as antisemitic does not then go back and apologize when it was said ‘as an accident’. We don’t do that. Something was said. It might have been taken out of context, but something was said.
What we do is the person who said it learns not to say that again. We realize they are not racist (for this reason). We understand that knowledge was gained on how to speak and handle situations going forward.
We, again, do not apologize for pointing something out even if it was said accidentally. Just like we don’t apologize when someone gets offended when the speaker was “only joking”. It’s a boundary and we respect that. It doesn’t mean the speaker is the evil, but it does mean e need to reflect on the power of our words (both good and bad) and we move forward in understanding.
Asking for an apology or thinking that one should be made does not sit well with me and so I’m just giving my opinion on what I’ve read on this thread.
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@Kestrel said in Antisemitism allegedly:
Maybe it also really was an honest mistake to have created a whole new thread, and the intention was to reply directly to the comments in context. But I really wish this board didn’t now have a whole thread titled “Antisemitism Allegedly” about how, allegedly, allegations of antisemitism cannot be trusted. Did this need to be a topic here?
It’s possible to rename threads. V, I’d consider it. Person to person, player to player. Not mod voice.
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Your post has upset me and is partly why it took me so long to respond. It is difficult topic and beyond the scope here.
I believe there are racists in this hobby. We been given no reason to believe retro staff are among them. Even Wiki admitted there is no reason to believe they are among them.
You don’t need to believe me. It is what it is. It can be hard to know online who people really are so while the doubts are ouch, I can empathize with them.
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@Tez
Sure I absolutely meant to reply and replied wrong. I would be fine with the posts being moved if they can be. -
Sorry I can’t find the command to change the title.
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Wiki said he got an antisemitic dm from an unknown user and suggested it could be from retro staff. He did I believe admit there was nothing connecting the dm to retro beyond timing.
Retro staff as far as I know said nothing racist to him even accidentally. While they could apologize and maybe did that someone did that, I don’t believe they should apologize as if they did a wrong.
I don’t believe they should be held accountable for the actions of an unknown user who has no known association with them.
Things like this is partly why the allegation is concerning as well meaning people may go but staff should apologize. Also it is partly on me as my wording was unclear and continued with the information from the other thread. I really made this worse by speaking up and apologize myself especially to retro staff as now it is spiraling.
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I would say that it’s less about the allegations of antisemitism in general and more about allegations that turn out to be untrue. A lot of (very abusive, shitty) people can point to allegations proven false as evidence of no wrong-doing in the future, which can create a more dangerous space – this was my argument against Wikibara’s inclusion of the link between their application being denied and antisemitism in their original post.
When I worked in in-patient court-mandated substance abuse recovery, there was a white supremacist guy who told me tales about how he would get fabrications of abuse, which could easily be proven false to create a protective shell. “I don’t abuse my partner, she said I abused her and everyone found out it was bullshit”, which then gave him free rein to kind of abuse whomever. After all, people are lying to discredit his character. I stopped being interested in correctional psych after that, if I’m being honest. Moral injury and all.
According to my (very uninformed, very amateur) research, this is apparently called a “silver bullet” in the legal field.
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Just as an addendum to the above exchange, I’ve edited my first post on this thread to reflect that @voiceinthevoid and I ended up talking things through in DMs, and I do believe they were coming from an authentic place. I stand by the rest of what I said, and also appreciate them hearing out my discomfort and taking concerns on board.
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I believe that my post was partly emotional and was not worded well. I should have let this rest. I also think Kestral was coming from a good place and made good points and I appreciate Tek’s input in changing the name.
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@voiceinthevoid said in Wikibara’s allegations:
– I appreciate Tek’s input in changing the name.
It’s Tez.
Just – to be clear. You’re fine. Just want everyone to know who I am, which is Tez, with a z.
Glad you guys had a good conversation.
