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    Concordia Thread

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Game Gab
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    • PavelP
      Pavel @Tez
      last edited by

      @Tez said in Concordia Thread:

      @Coin I agree, so far as it is possible, to provide what you can – not just for the player, but also for other players, to help define the game’s culture and clarify it for current players as well.

      And so that any players seeing that in someone else know that if they report it, it will be backed up.

      I’d add that it also demonstrates that staff will clearly communicate things, if they do so.

      Whenever we banned people here, even if it was obvious to everyone, we made an effort to explain why they were banned; not because we necessarily wanted to, but because we needed to retain trust.

      He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
      BE AN ADULT

      SingstheTailsS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 5
      • TezT
        Tez Administrators @bored
        last edited by Tez

        @bored It’s a big reason I prefer a flexible, meritocracy approach to most game leadership positions rather than who makes it first. Obviously this can be very challenging in a game based on bloodlines and inheritance. For some reason.

        I do like the flat-structure approach that they appeared to be taking in most respects, though: opt-in, no leadership in player orgs, IC house leadership being NPC. But I think the fact that there is a notation of people being ‘Founders’ of various organizations is a problem. Also, houses are foundational to the setting. Someone might not be a part of an org, but everyone has a house and a family. Having a named heir and making such a strong thematic point about that being a big scandal if it ever changes is–

        I dunno. It just seems against some of the ideas that they are working on elsewhere. They really do seem to be trying to execute a vision where players are at equal seating, they just aren’t all the way there yet.

        I will add one more thing: I think Arx did it wrong when they had a billion player organizations. I hope that staff keeps a closer eye on player organizations. We don’t need 6 charities or 3 courtier organizations or whatever. I think the game has already put stronger limits in place than Arx had with how many people need to be involved to create an org, but by introducing the idea of founding members, it is Very Easy to imagine that down the line people will want to be Founding Members of their Very Own Charity. (Or whatever.)

        she/they

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
        • AnhedoniaA
          Anhedonia @bear_necessities
          last edited by

          @bear_necessities

          Yeah honestly I don’t think any of the player run organizations have accomplished anything other than create themselves. Being a member of an organization, or its “founder” (see: someone who took initiative and asked to do something), has given no one a competitive advantage. People expressed an interest in creating something and staff thought it was neat, so they let it ride. Game has been out what, two weeks? And a lot of the foundation is still being written. Nothing is permanent in an alpha. System’s malleable.

          @Tez

          agree, player organization bloat trivializes their purpose.

          PavelP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
          • PolkP
            Polk
            last edited by Polk

            I’d say there’s a mile of difference between letting players run things, and letting players invent entire institutions out of whole cloth, because they want to be superfriends and team up across IC societal lines.

            I have no idea if that is or was happening on Concordia, but “Let’s work together, friends!” is a MUSH player impulse.

            RinelR 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • T
              Testament @bored
              last edited by Testament

              @bored said in Concordia Thread:

              (So, we gonna discuss Levente also being banned?)

              I will admit, I did think it odd that Percival was given a forum post of their banning, but Levente was just shuffled onto the Gone list.

              Not gonna sit here and jump to conclusions on it, but it was strange, especially maybe it wasn’t even a ban, just really odd timing. For all we know, the player just put in a request and said they were bailing.

              big shrug

              I don't know what I'm doing. Poke at Seven Nations sevennations.aresmush.com port 2021

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
              • PavelP
                Pavel @Anhedonia
                last edited by

                @Anhedonia said in Concordia Thread:

                People expressed an interest in creating something and staff thought it was neat, so they let it ride.

                My only advice would be to take a cue from Arx’s organisations - let no one player be the sole authority, if they’re to be allowed authority in the first place. The last thing you need is an organisation throttled to a halt by one person’s overwhelm or absence.

                He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                BE AN ADULT

                RozR 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                • RozR
                  Roz @Pavel
                  last edited by Roz

                  @Pavel said in Concordia Thread:

                  @Anhedonia said in Concordia Thread:

                  People expressed an interest in creating something and staff thought it was neat, so they let it ride.

                  My only advice would be to take a cue from Arx’s organisations - let no one player be the sole authority, if they’re to be allowed authority in the first place. The last thing you need is an organisation throttled to a halt by one person’s overwhelm or absence.

                  My only advice would be to take a cue from Arx’s organisations - let no one player be the sole authority, if they’re to be allowed authority in the first place. The last thing you need is an organisation throttled to a halt by one person’s overwhelm or absence. don’t do them

                  she/her | playlist

                  PavelP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 7
                  • PavelP
                    Pavel @Roz
                    last edited by

                    @Roz Well yes, obviously. But the horse has already bolted, unless they want to hit the undo button.

                    He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                    BE AN ADULT

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • RucketR
                      Rucket @bored
                      last edited by

                      @bored Was Levente banned? I only saw the bbpost about Percival and before that the only other person I know that was banned was Katerina’s first player. I had no idea what happened to Levente.

                      I guess I assumed they quit because the other 2 people that were banned had bbposts made about them.

                      B 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • M
                        mietze
                        last edited by

                        I love the fact there are no huge disparities, really. Everyone’s of roughly same social class. you see a little whisper of that with the distant bloodline people but I really REALLY hope that staff never tries to do a hard disparity in class. I have literally never seen that be sustainable long term on a game and it just seems to set up so many OOC resentments and fights I personally hope they keep it out of their scope of game. I really love that an org belongs to all its members. my experience on Arx is that while yes, all orgs on paper had to have multiple people in leadership, in practice and just by fiat it often fell solely to one person just because of rotating rerostering or life or whatever. Even worse, sometimes people would try to gatekeep each other sometimes between leadership pcs ICly and OOCly which was…not good. when it was bad, it was so so bad.

                        I won’t be surprised if there’s passive or purposeful resistance on behalf of players for awhile at the idea that no, you actually do not get to lord (ha ha) anything over another person when it comes to organizations or even to some degree in families. PC orgs don’t have staff leadership but it’s clear they’ll come down hard on people who try to step over the line even a little bit with the exclusionary ooc behavior. And while there are PC heirs–they’re just that. While lore says it’s usually a disgrace for them to be passed over, it’s not always the case, and I kind of hope that PCs don’t test that too by behaving badly thinking that staff won’t come down hard on an heir player oocly gatekeeping, because i’m pretty sure that they will. i’m sure at some point someone will probably try? For whatever reason, it’s really really really hard for certain folks to feel secure in the position that they feel that they have in a game without gatekeeping.

                        somasatoriS EvilgraysonE 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 7
                        • somasatoriS
                          somasatori @mietze
                          last edited by

                          @mietze All I want to do in the scholar group is soliloquy about the price of linen in Eldervale, blink owlishly, eat hot chip, and be an awkward bookworm.

                          they/them

                          RucketR 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                          • RucketR
                            Rucket @somasatori
                            last edited by

                            @somasatori Sir, there’s a trade org in the works for discussing the price of linen and such. 😛

                            But no, I get it and I do like they are limiting people to 2. Since I recall seeing quite a few people respond to every post that went up.

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                            • B
                              bored @Rucket
                              last edited by

                              @Rucket I don’t know what happened to Levente. I logged in to 10+ notifications about all my messages with him deleted/purged and Percival banned. Someone mentioned a post by Percival but maybe it’s been deleted by now? So maybe he quit as part of the banning incident, but it feels not-coincidental.

                              Also re: group ‘founders’ I think that’s part of t he rub, and why I would prefer a more thematically-coherent approach. What if someone takes a 50 year old scholar off the roster 6 months from now? ‘Sorry, bud, you weren’t really involved in the scholar world like those plucky 18 year old pillars of wisdom who founded our community!’ It’s just weird.

                              TezT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                              • TezT
                                Tez Administrators @bored
                                last edited by

                                @bored said in Concordia Thread:

                                ‘Sorry, bud, you weren’t really involved in the scholar world like those plucky 18 year old pillars of wisdom who founded our community!’ It’s just weird.

                                If there’s one thing I’ve learned from L&L games, it’s that plucky 18 year olds can do anything.

                                she/they

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 15
                                • hellfrogH
                                  hellfrog @Tez
                                  last edited by

                                  @Tez said in Concordia Thread:

                                  @Faraday said in Concordia Thread:

                                  That said, I disagree that on top of game-runners’ already overwhelming duties we need to add “help misguided people to better themselves”. If they wish to do that, great. I applaud them. But they should not be expected to do so. Some of the most toxic people in this community will cry “I’m just misunderstood / I did nothing wrong” till the cows come home, so telling the difference between a serial predator and someone who doesn’t know better can be super tough. I don’t fault anyone for just drawing the line at “you’re not a good fit for this game.”

                                  Big this. The last time I banned someone, it was probably something that they could have worked on and corrected, but damn if I have the bandwidth for that. I’m sorry, buddy. I just do not. I hope you grow and learn. Elsewhere.

                                  man every time, Apos said this. But like, when you are staff there are six billion things awaiting your time and energy that are to the benefit of the people playing your game who are NOT being troublesome. Choosing to spend that time and energy ‘training’ someone is not the best use of it

                                  fr fr
                                  (she/her)

                                  somasatoriS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 6
                                  • RinelR
                                    Rinel @Polk
                                    last edited by

                                    @Polk said in Concordia Thread:

                                    I have no idea if that is or was happening on Concordia, but “Let’s work together, friends!” is a MUSH player impulse.

                                    well

                                    it’s called Concordia

                                    “let’s work together, friends” is actually one of the more sensible actions to be taken given the setting (not unlike Arx, which generally did a pretty fantastic job of having people put aside important differences in the face of existential threats)

                                    bird's still the word

                                    PavelP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                    • PavelP
                                      Pavel @Rinel
                                      last edited by

                                      @Rinel said in Concordia Thread:

                                      not unlike Arx, which generally did a pretty fantastic job of having people put aside important differences in the face of existential threats

                                      Which is not at all unlike real life. All the railing against ‘superfriends’ seems to conveniently forget that all kinds of disparate groups of people unite against a common/existential threat all the time.

                                      He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                                      BE AN ADULT

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                                      • somasatoriS
                                        somasatori @hellfrog
                                        last edited by

                                        @hellfrog said in Concordia Thread:

                                        @Tez said in Concordia Thread:

                                        @Faraday said in Concordia Thread:

                                        That said, I disagree that on top of game-runners’ already overwhelming duties we need to add “help misguided people to better themselves”. If they wish to do that, great. I applaud them. But they should not be expected to do so. Some of the most toxic people in this community will cry “I’m just misunderstood / I did nothing wrong” till the cows come home, so telling the difference between a serial predator and someone who doesn’t know better can be super tough. I don’t fault anyone for just drawing the line at “you’re not a good fit for this game.”

                                        Big this. The last time I banned someone, it was probably something that they could have worked on and corrected, but damn if I have the bandwidth for that. I’m sorry, buddy. I just do not. I hope you grow and learn. Elsewhere.

                                        man every time, Apos said this. But like, when you are staff there are six billion things awaiting your time and energy that are to the benefit of the people playing your game who are NOT being troublesome. Choosing to spend that time and energy ‘training’ someone is not the best use of it

                                        sounds like it’s time to

                                        KILL SIX BILLION THINGS AWAITING YOUR TIME AND ENERGY
                                        8d4a162c-0e62-4be1-b589-96204dddef7f-image.png

                                        But yeah, hellfrog has good advice here. Training rarely works. Take it from me, I thought I trained people on a game I ran (or at least I talked them through how to be good and ethical to players). I thought I could trust some people. I was very misguided in some people in whom I placed trust. People will usually tell you exactly what you need to know about them. Often it is best to just see people where they are and let them go. You’re not their therapist; you can’t make them see the consequences of their actions in a meaningful way if they choose not to engage with that themselves. Maybe they’ll grow from the experience, maybe they won’t. You present the facts of why they are no longer allowed there and then it’s up to them to internalize it or rail against it.

                                        they/them

                                        RinelR 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 5
                                        • FaradayF
                                          Faraday @Coin
                                          last edited by

                                          @hellfrog said in Concordia Thread:

                                          But like, when you are staff there are six billion things awaiting your time and energy that are to the benefit of the people playing your game who are NOT being troublesome. Choosing to spend that time and energy ‘training’ someone is not the best use of it

                                          Yeah. And also - if the person is being that much of a disruption, what happens to the rest of the game if your ‘training’ doesn’t work? (Spoken from the bitter experience of a person who thought that a player could be guided, but ultimately had to ban them anyway.)

                                          @Coin said in Concordia Thread:

                                          I’m saying it’s best practices, and it’s worth striving towards those.

                                          I don’t disagree that in most cases it’s good practice. I was responding to what I saw as absolutism in various posts (not necessarily yours - I’m too lazy to look them up now) about players being “entitled” to that information or staff having some kind of moral imperative to try to rehabilitate people before banning them.

                                          PavelP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                                          • PavelP
                                            Pavel @Faraday
                                            last edited by Pavel

                                            @Faraday said in Concordia Thread:

                                            staff having some kind of moral imperative to try to rehabilitate people before banning them

                                            From what I understand of the original utterance of this point, it wasn’t so much that staff had to rehabilitate or train people, but that supplying some information during the ban (like a reason, or general gist of complaints) would better enable good-faith players to correct behaviour they hadn’t otherwise realised that a) they were doing, or b) was wrong.

                                            ETA: And I’d say, personally (since morality can only ever be personal) it would be a moral imperative to communicate that information if it can be done with the safety of others in mind, where it would be reasonable to assume that the behaviour was inadvertent or from a good-faith player.

                                            He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                                            BE AN ADULT

                                            S CoinC 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
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