Empire Discussion Thread
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just for the record, that kind of context paints the interaction differently and would’ve been important to have, but my impression isn’t entirely changed. in your op, you said:
@Warma-Sheen said in Empire Discussion Thread:
That’s the log in entirety. Nothing left out. That was it, completely. So be careful if you’re there. Don’t ask questions about policies or procedures. And definitely don’t communicate if you receive mixed messages and are confused.
And no, there were no other incidents that preceded this. It was just this from start to finish. One and done.
so yes, it did initially come off like just out of the blue you got very upset and impatient over small delay, which is not reasonable.
having your expectations set to a different standard and then watching them not be met with no explanation can be frustrating, I’ll give you that, but it was still only a difference of a few days, and this was the first time it had happened? so the way you approached it hit me as very unpleasant especially given that it was, like you said, your very first conversation about the issue.
try not to miss the forest for the trees, like. life happens you don’t have context for, this is something Ada was providing out of pocket at no expense to you, a little friendliness and patience goes a long way.
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@Warma-Sheen I don’t remember why I’ve marked you as a problem person (I think it had to do with you complaining about staff interaction with LA2043, wherein you were being a huge dick), but I chock this up to it being a You problem.
I have nothing more to say than that. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
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From reading the log, I think @Warma-Sheen comes across as a little disrespectful and impatient toward the staffer. Had I been the staff member in that situation, I would definitely have asked them to go away, come back, and try again after an attitude adjustment.
However, Ada does also come across as a little thin-skinned here. It does feel like she has jumped to the nuclear option very quickly. If that is her definition of brow-beating, she should prepare to feel that way a lot with the average MU crowd, honestly.
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Especially in light of the extra info provided later, where extra detail had been provided superfluously, that’s not how I read Ada’s no about submitting logs.
I read that interaction as no, logs don’t need submitted with the job, because the @scene function should have already provided them. But since no scenes were auto-logged, she was asking if there was any OTHER verification for the RP she was expecting to have happened to go alongside such a large request for resources - including even just a basic confirmation that RP had occurred between the person who would be given the resources and the person making the request for them.
No, you’re not supposed to SEND logs, because the mechanic is there that will track them. Since I don’t see them tracked, can you tell me more about why this NPC should give you their ENTIRE pile of resources, and what RP has supported such a major ask being made, much less granted.
It’s text, so tone is always a guessing game. But that’s how I interpreted Ada’s responses.
When she made that request, she was accused of ignoring a player and accused of being frustrating, by a player who despite not having followed the game systems was still being given a chance to explain the request anyway. I saw a busy staffer offering to help a new player on a new game find a way to do what they wanted in case the game’s setup had been confusing and RP happened that somehow hadn’t gotten logged.
And instead of working with her so they could do that, the player came in hot because it wasn’t just an unsubstantiated approval.
I’m not going to say what is and isn’t worth banning on someone else’s game. That’s not my energy and time investment to navigate. But I don’t see Ada acting in bad faith in that interaction at all.
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@Pacha said in Empire Discussion Thread:
However, Ada does also come across as a little thin-skinned here. It does feel like she has jumped to the nuclear option very quickly. If that is her definition of brow-beating, she should prepare to feel that way a lot with the average MU crowd, honestly.
gonna disagree pretty firmly. I do not at all think that behavior is typical of the “average” crowd. I have MU*'d for a vast chunk of my life, and while I have certainly met a LOT of people who were pushy, disrespectful, or just straight up walking talking asshole, I have met tons of people who weren’t just fun, but considerate of RL and respectful enough not to cross a line like that – or at least never more than once; everyone starts somewhere, learning is a lifelong process, etc etc.
what you would call thin skinned, I would just say is having a strong boundary against shitty behavior, and it’s going to set a pretty clear precedent for what is and is not an acceptable way to approach Ada. I honestly would prefer more staff to have a very clear and hard line like that, because the only places I ever played where childish assholes were the average were where the staff were too inconsistent and let that kind of incredibly fucking irritating immaturity fly.
it’s their table, you’re a guest, act like it. it’s not hard.
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@Wizz said in Empire Discussion Thread:
I do not at all think that behavior is typical of the “average” crowd. … I honestly would prefer more staff to have a very clear and hard line like that
Even good players can have a bad day, lose their temper, get frustrated or impatient, or even just word something poorly that comes across harsher than they meant. Nobody’s perfect.
If staff wants to take a hard line, that’s their prerogative. It’s not for me to tell other people how to run their game. But in my experience, it’s not necessary. You can set boundaries for acceptable behavior without banning everyone who steps out of line. For example:
@Pacha said in Empire Discussion Thread:
Had I been the staff member in that situation, I would definitely have asked them to go away, come back, and try again after an attitude adjustment.
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From my experience of staffing games and also having run a (reasonably) successful Ares game for a while, I can agree that it would be lovely if everyone approached staff with compassion and respect.
However, we’re all painfully aware we don’t live in a perfect world, and even great players can sometimes have a day where they have a shitty attitude.
I don’t know the whole saga of the interaction between these people. But, in this conversation, the player definitely made a couple of catty comments, which I can totally accept the staffer wanting to set a boundary about.
My point is that going straight to a ban felt a little extreme. I would probably have said something like “Hey, it’s not okay to talk to me like that. I’m done with this for today, but if you want to approach me again tomorrow with a better mindset, I am open to a discussion”.
Obviously, it is Ada’s game and they are paying to keep the lights on, so they can do as they like. But if they are going to ban everyone who ever makes a slightly backhanded remark, they may end up banning a lot of people.
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@Pacha said in Empire Discussion Thread:
I would probably have said something like “Hey, it’s not okay to talk to me like that. I’m done with this for today, but if you want to approach me again tomorrow with a better mindset, I am open to a discussion”.
That’s reasonable. It’s also reasonable for someone to nope out of doing that work, especially for a rude stranger.
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@Pacha said in Empire Discussion Thread:
even great players can sometimes have a day where they have a shitty attitude.
A great player probably knows enough to be on their best behavior while I’m getting to know that they’re a great player.
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@Pacha said in Empire Discussion Thread:
Obviously, it is Ada’s game and they are paying to keep the lights on, so they can do as they like. But if they are going to ban everyone who ever makes a slightly backhanded remark, they may end up banning a lot of people.
@helvetica and @Trashcan said it very well.
I do respect the way you and @Faraday approach it, it’s very kind to do that lifting for someone who may or may not just be having a bad day, but you’re giving a stranger the benefit of the doubt in a situation where the adult thing to do would and should be taking the time to wait out your disregulation rather than lash out at someone you barely know on their game where, again, you are only a guest and playing because they have dedicated the time, effort, and money to providing that space.
if someone decides to ban lots of very rude strangers, I mean. so what? this is honestly the only medium I have ever played where bans are considered this shocking “nuclear option.” they are actually pretty common on tons of other platforms, and it doesn’t prevent them from being diverse and active spaces, because it’s about creating and maintaining the game culture and they understand that people come and go regardless.
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@Ominous said in Empire Discussion Thread:
Ada explicitly contradicts you.
You page Ada: We’re supposed to send logs?
Ada pages you: No, but there is a scene logger. That notwithstanding, have you actually done scenes with Sophia?
That’s makes it seem pretty clear that logging of scenes is not required for submittals, only that you can log scenes if you want.
See, I’m reading that differently: That you don’t need to submit logs, because there’s a scene logger built in that should be used to do it all automatically. I don’t know if that’s the case, but that’s an alternate read that I don’t think is entirely out of the realm of the reasonable.
That said, I don’t think either side comes across as particularly amazing in that log. @Warma-Sheen is a touch rude and pushy, while the headstaffer is rather knee-jerky. Though to be fair to them, it’s not unreasonable to predict that further cattiness or pushiness could be expected based on this interaction, and they want to nip it in the bud.
However, ultimately, they have their policy written on their website: “I am running this game as a hobby for myself and others. If someone is a disruptive nuisance or generally badly behaved, I can ban them as suits me.” So it’s not out of the blue, it’s not unexpected.
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To be absolutely clear, I totally respect Ada’s right to run their game as they like. As long as they are paying for the server they can declare that everyone has to play while standing on one foot and balancing a rubber chicken on their head, if that is their wish!
I am just saying that it is not how I would run a game and that I think it might end up in them banning people that could be put back on the right track with only a pretty small amount of effort. Of course, Ada is welcome to decide that is more effort than they are willing to put forth.
My assumption (perhaps false!) is that when opening a game one wants to develop a large and diverse base of players. So for me, banning people who don’t necessarily need to be is kind of a negative thing, because it is then a player (and perhaps their friends) that I don’t have.
Of course, there is an argument to be made that curating a smaller player base of very well behaved players and cutting others at the early stage of a problem behaviour is actually a better way forward, which is perhaps what Ada is aiming for.
So perhaps that is also colouring my opinion of whether it was “good” to ban the person. In any case, I fully support Ada’s choice to ban or not ban who they like. “Thin Skinned” may have been a poor choice of words previously, perhaps I meant something closer to “reactive”.
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@Jenn said in Empire Discussion Thread:
No, you’re not supposed to SEND logs, because the mechanic is there that will track them. Since I don’t see them tracked, can you tell me more about why this NPC should give you their ENTIRE pile of resources, and what RP has supported such a major ask being made, much less granted.
To me, if I have to proactively document something to get staff to act, that is me sending something to staff. Whether that’s emailing a copy of a log, asking staff to be present in the scene to witness it, having other PCs in the scene reach out to staff to confirm that X, Y, and Z happened in the scene, mailing it priority next day certified mail to staff, paying a pilot to skywrite it over staff’s house, hiring a process server to have it served as a summons for court, or typing +logthisscene at the start of a scene, I have had to provide staff something as part of my request. So, if I, a dumb player who doesn’t know the ins and outs of the server or even that a +logthisscene command exists, ask staff if I need to provide/send/submit/present/proffer/tender/offer/point to/any other synonym an item and that staff must review said item before they will do the thing I have requested they do, the answer to my question is always emphatically “yes.”
What Ada should have written in response to the question was some variation of “We require evidence of roleplay that makes progress towards accomplishing the thing that has been requested. We do not require that logs be sent to us, as we have the +logthisscene command that will log the scene and we will be able to refer to it. However, if you did not use the command, we will need logs or some other means of proving that roleplay has occurred moving this item forward.” Because their response is unclear and confusing to me and apparently a few other people in this thread. I went down the same path as Warma Sheen and also would have been incredibly pissed at this reaction from staff, because they couldn’t be clear in their communications.
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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@Pacha said in Empire Discussion Thread:
curating a smaller player base
Yes, please. Tangential, but I can’t with the frenzy that happens on some of these games nowadays. As soon as I start signing on the next day to a wall of new forum notifications, I find myself dropping off. Slightly more intimate player bases can be so much fun.
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Games just run so much better without the darn players getting in there and messing things up!
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@Pacha said in Empire Discussion Thread:
My assumption (perhaps false!) is that when opening a game one wants to develop a large and diverse base of players.
I feel like we’re reaching a point where new gamerunners are going to focus more on just running the game they want to run rather than running a game that attracts a large crowd.
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@Pacha said in Empire Discussion Thread:
So for me, banning people who don’t necessarily need to be is kind of a negative thing, because it is then a player (and perhaps their friends) that I don’t have.
that’s kind of the crux of it, imo: whether or not they need to be kind is up to you to decide, you’re the one at the gate, right?
if you create a space where people who decide it’s not necessary to be kind aren’t welcome, all you’re losing are people who don’t think it’s necessary to be kind.
personally, these are just games. we’re all here to have fun, people should be going out of their way to be kind to each other because that adds to and enhances the fun. that takes effort, absolutely, but that only means it should be encouraged.
as to whether or not you need to worry so much about having big numbers to be successful, I can honestly say the most fun I have ever had in the hobby, hands down, were two games that had about 15-20 active people at a time but very respectful, engaged, and kind staff who made it very clear that they expected the same in return.
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@Pavel said in Empire Discussion Thread:
See, I’m reading that differently: That you don’t need to submit logs, because there’s a scene logger built in that should be used to do it all automatically. I don’t know if that’s the case, but that’s an alternate read that I don’t think is entirely out of the realm of the reasonable.
Then why didn’t Ada say THAT?
As a staffer, you have a player coming to you in apparent confusion, pushy or not, about why their request hasn’t been processed. During that conversation they ask “Was I supposed to send logs?” or “Do I need to send logs?” clearly indicating that they haven’t read the +request submittal guidelines, don’t know that staff need evidence of RP supporting the request, and apparently doesn’t know that+logthisscene exists since they are asking if they need to send .txt to staff from their hard drive. Instead of a very unclear “No, you don’t have to send logs,” and leaving it at that, elaborate on the +request process and the +logthisscene command.
That said, I don’t think either side comes across as particularly amazing in that log. @Warma-Sheen is a touch rude and pushy, while the headstaffer is rather knee-jerky. Though to be fair to them, it’s not unreasonable to predict that further cattiness or pushiness could be expected based on this interaction, and they want to nip it in the bud.
I don’t read rudeness or pushiness. I read confusion, but conversational text doesn’t convey tone very well. However, if Warma Sheen has a penchant for being rude and pushy, and Ada knew that, then that might have colored Ada’s perception of what Warma Sheen was writing.
However, ultimately, they have their policy written on their website: “I am running this game as a hobby for myself and others. If someone is a disruptive nuisance or generally badly behaved, I can ban them as suits me.” So it’s not out of the blue, it’s not unexpected.
I don’t disagree. Ada’s server, Ada’s rules. Admin can forbid anyone from accessing their server for any reason, even ridiculous ones. I will not refute, disagree, or argue against that. I will, however, point out when I feel that Admin is being ridiculous. And based only on the text I am reading, I see a confused player trying to figure out why things aren’t working as expected and a staff member who is not clarifying that confusion at all and then banning that confused player for not reading their unclear response correctly, and that is ridiculous.
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ActuaIly, this has been very interesting to me, in understanding how much “the numbers” seem to be a part of how I define the success or not of a game.
My initial thinking was definitely based on this deep assumption that one should be casting the widest possible net, pulling in the greatest possible amount of people and trying to be all things to all people. It’s probably based on my formative MUSH experience being in the big, multi-sphere WoD pit.
However, now I think of it I can totally see that not all games should or would strive for that. However, in this case looking at the available roster, it does seem like Ada is hoping to achieve a decently sized player base eventually.
In any case. Perspective broadened.
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@Ominous said in Empire Discussion Thread:
What Ada should have written in response to the question
I think that this is the crux of why Ada and Warma had that interaction in the first place.
Because I disagree that Ada SHOULD have said anything differently. She COULD have, and maybe that would have helped.
But if she said what she meant, and that was misunderstood, Warma COULD have just as easily stated, hey, I’m confused here because it reads to me like you’re asking y
He COULD even go into better clarification of where the confusion was with a politely asked, “You mentioned not needing to send logs, but also that you need RP support. What’s the ideal format for getting that support to you?”Both of them could have made other choices. But they didn’t. Ada said something. It may or may not have been misunderstood. Rather than respectfully asking for clarification, a player came at head staff sideways about it.
So, sure. Staff CAN bend further backwards to clarify a misunderstanding that instead of being conveyed as such just got snippy… Or they can say they’re not interested in supprorting snippy responses and focus on people willing to work on finding understanding collaboratively instead. Only Ada can decide which of those she prefers.
