Character Death

[MisterBoring]

@somasatori said in Character Death:

If you have a good character death that feels meaningful, it can absolutely propel the story into the stratosphere.

As someone who also enjoys a good character death, I find it sad that there are some people who would refuse even the most epic of story ending character deaths. I understand not wanting your PC to die, especially in an arbitrary or uncool fashion, but if your PC sacrifice ties off an 18 month plot and removes one of the biggest antagonists in the game permanently, choosing not to do that and allow the antagonist to continue attacking the PCs effectively spits on everybody else that worked toward an ending to that plot. (Yes, I realize that’s a very very specific example, and yes I still hold it over the person that did that to this day even though they regularly attend my home tabletop game.)

[Pavel]

Of course, none of what @Faraday or I say should be taken as an indictment on people who enjoy playing a MU like it’s a CoD lobby. We simply wouldn’t play on those games, nor would we expect the other folks to play on games we like. Both types of games should be allowed to exist, so long as expectations are expressed and managed appropriately.

[Roz]

I’ll die on the hill that MUs are not TTRPGs, even when they’re using the bones and theme of a TTRPG system, and that trying to insist on a connection between them has been to the hobby’s detriment. Unless you’re playing on a private game with a small group of people, the fundamental structure of MUs is just too different from a TTRPG table.

[somasatori]

@Roz said in Character Death:

I’ll die on the hill that MUs are not TTRPGs, even when they’re using the bones and theme of a TTRPG system, and that trying to insist on a connection between them has been to the hobby’s detriment. Unless you’re playing on a private game with a small group of people, the fundamental structure of MUs is just too different from a TTRPG table.

No, they’re not TTRPGs, but many of them use the same genre emulation techniques that TTRPGs do, which I feel has had some effect on the way that various MUSHes have played out. I could say you wouldn’t go into a Star Wars game expecting it to have the same tone and theme of a WoD game, which is obvious, but you could say the same thing of other urban fantasy games like Under the Stars. If you play Werewolf the Apocalypse on a MUSH the pastiches and themes of Werewolf are going to be there, because you’re using the mechanics and themes of Werewolf the Apocalypse, as unto the same for Dungeons and Dragons, Star Wars FFG, etc. It isn’t a TTRPG exactly, but games that are based on TTRPGs will still usually have some relationship to how the game functions on a player-to-player level. Going back to Werewolf, packs ostensibly work the way they do because it’s an easy way to to bind PCs at the table together. If you encourage packs in your Werewolf MUSH then you’re suggesting that a TTRPG dynamic is part of your game.

That said I kind of feel like this isn’t part of the discussion of player death broadly and could be its own topic altogether haha

Edit to add: although I’ve been on a lot of WoD games and it’s kind of been my main setting for most of my MUSH career, I really do like when people make their own settings and themes and feel like that pulls in a direction that makes it more focused on the MUSH’s theme/story and less around the gamification of the MUSH via whatever RPG book predated it. There’s so much that can be problematic about the grognardian insistence that a MUSH play out like a TTRPG, which I’ll also agree has absolutely been to the detriment of the hobby.

[Muse]

On Liberation I played Lola Darling (at least that’s what she said her name was ) and I frequently had the writing advice ‘kill your Darlings’ in my head. Which I suppose is my weird way of saying, I am team character death.

I also tend to sit a little further back from my characters, and focus on the story they’re a conduit for telling, and not just how they experience the world. And the reality is, good stories involve strife, and I am always hoping my characters root deep enough in others, that if they die, an impact will be felt, and that will also become part of the story.

[MisterBoring]

I think it’s odd when people say MUs aren’t TTRPGs, but I could take the rules of almost any MU, print them out and run a tabletop group with them.

[Roz]

@somasatori That’s just games sharing a setting/theme with its source material, which isn’t the same as emulating the experience of playing that specific TTRPG. Playing a Star Wars MU* is not the same thing as watching the movie. Playing a Mass Effect MU* is definitely not emulating the experience of playing the video game. But I feel like people always trip over this when it comes to TTRPGs in a way that can be actively detrimental to a MU*'s development, because if people are thinking about emulating tabletop on a MU, they’re not thinking about the process from a MU-first perspective.

Playing CoD in tabletop and playing a CoD MU are wildly different experiences. Playing tabletop and playing MUs in general are wildly different, and the challenges they face are also entirely different. The core structure is different: one is a private experience with a small handful of players getting constant DM attention. The other is a persistent lobby of numerous players, many of whom don’t know each other. The systems require a different approach in order to support a persistent environment that players can exist in without constant DM attention.

@MisterBoring said in Character Death:

I think it’s odd when people say MUs aren’t TTRPGs, but I could take the rules of almost any MU, print them out and run a tabletop group with them.

And yet that experience would still be different! Sharing some mechanics doesn’t make the needs and experience the same.

ETA: Baldur’s Gate 3 shares rules with D&D 5e, and yet no one would say that the experience of playing these two things is the same!

[Pavel]

Netball started off as a misinterpretation of the rules of basketball (at least based on an alleged anecdote, it works for metaphorical purposes). They evolved to be different sports with different practices and experiences even if they came from the same root. But they’re more similar to each other than they are to, say, snooker. And those three are all more similar to each other than to Formula 1 Racing, even though they all fall under the category of sport.

So while MUing isn’t precisely TTRPG, it’s a close relation that comparisons can be made so long as the inherent differences are acknowledged.

ETA: To, hopefully, simplify: MUing and TTRPGs are cousins. There’s lots of “genetic” overlap, but there’s also lots of difference. So one isn’t necessarily wrong to say they’re in the same ballpark depending on where you’re measuring from.

[MisterBoring]

@Roz said in Character Death:

Sharing some mechanics doesn’t make the needs and experience the same.

I think that depends on the person in question. I go into any RP situation be it LARP, tabletop, MU, or forum / pbem game looking to participating in the telling of a rewarding collaborative story.

[Faraday]

@MisterBoring said in Character Death:

I think it’s odd when people say MUs aren’t TTRPGs, but I could take the rules of almost any MU, print them out and run a tabletop group with them.

You can play TT with literally any rules or no rules (diceless/freeform) though. Many TT systems are adapted to LARPs too. So yes, they are mostly offshoots of the same family tree, but they are all very different experiences IMHO.

[Third Eye]

@Ashkuri said in Character Death:

Killing off your beloved character and making yourself and all your friends cry is some of the best fun you can have out here.