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Bailey Fork
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I mean, ok!
The lesson is: don’t pre plan a bunch of arcs for your character in games. Literally every bit of drama you describe stems from that??
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Yeah. Like, I would agree that the PMs started very wishy washy about wanting to tie your characters permanently together, but toward the end? No they did not. You both sounded very enthusiastically into shipping your characters.
I don’t remember what your story was, and of course I can’t see the discord PMs, but basing all your innocence on the wishy-washy at the start and then never checking back in seems weird?
Especially since you did admit to also shipping with someone else. What were the PMs with this player when you started the other ship, too, I wonder?
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@hellfrog said in Bailey Fork:
I mean, ok!
The lesson is: don’t pre plan a bunch of arcs for your character in games. Literally every bit of drama you describe stems from that??
Yeah, that was 100% my takeaway from this, if I decide to stick around the hobby.
The other player in question described herself as more of a PBF player than a MUSHer, and said that she really likes to have a solid framework of where things are going to go, while I tend to prefer things organically. I think that, as much as anything, was part of the issue here. She was initially fixed in this “they aren’t a couple now, they are friends who had a fling” mindset, and didn’t change her mind until my character had already started showing an interest in a different character. At which point I told her that I wasn’t going to tell that player that their storyline would have an expiration point. I didn’t think that was fair.
Anyway. Yeah, lesson learned. Even if people try to push to plan things out OOCly, just let things happen organically ICly.
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@Meg said in Bailey Fork:
Yeah. Like, I would agree that the PMs started very wishy washy about wanting to tie your characters permanently together, but toward the end? No they did not. You both sounded very enthusiastically into shipping your characters.
Oh, CountrySingerGirl said flat out that she didn’t want to have our characters have a romance plot, it was (unfortunately) further back than that log history supported. And I was fine with that (I mentioned that in the log that did get posted).
I don’t remember what your story was, and of course I can’t see the discord PMs, but basing all your innocence on the wishy-washy at the start and then never checking back in seems weird?
Oh, we were checking in constantly. After the last line of this log, it was all on Discord. I feel differently about posting screenshots from Discord. I suppose I could go through and try to copy and paste the text and remove her name and such. But a lot of it was about another game and another game’s drama.
Especially since you did admit to also shipping with someone else. What were the PMs with this player when you started the other ship, too, I wonder?
I literally told her point blank, that my character was ICly pursuing the other character and not hers. She did not like that answer. That’s what has been somewhat frustrating for me, is that I was really clear and explicit with both, and was accused of “trying to play both sides”. When in reality, there was never any “present day” romance with Character A, just wistful remembrances of what could have been. And the possibility that it could come back around in the future, but “no time soon”.
I told the other Player, once it looked like there might be some kind of dating or something starting, that there was past history that could bubble up ICly in the future, and asked her if she wanted me to tell her in case it might trigger her (mostly thinking if there was an IC revelation that he was a dad). She said she just didn’t want any love triangles, and I told her that I wouldn’t do that, if he decided to get back with old flame, I’d let her know OOCly and her preference would be an IC breakup but thought that was fun RP. But at the time, I’d already told the first Player that my character was not pursuing hers, and he was ICly going to see what developed (if anything) with the other character.
That completely changed once Player 1 found out that the other person was Player 2, because of their past history on another MUSH.
EDIT: I edited this to clarify which player I was speaking with when, since I goofed and wrote the wrong thing.
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@bailey maybe it’s just my finely tuned MUSH DRAMA senses tingling, but idk. When I saw in the logs the other player kept asking kind of out of nowhere ‘so has he been dating since then?’ ‘is he dating?’, reader, I shook my head. Those are the flags of someone who is way more invested in having this thing lined up than they are letting on.
HOWEVER. At the end, when you did the “you must hate me, we used to rp and then it stopped and I wasn’t sure if it was me or you just got busy”, that’s also something that pings my uh oh detectors when talking to people.
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@hellfrog said in Bailey Fork:
@bailey maybe it’s just my finely tuned MUSH DRAMA senses tingling, but idk. When I saw in the logs the other player kept asking kind of out of nowhere ‘so has he been dating since then?’ ‘is he dating?’, reader, I shook my head. Those are the flags of someone who is way more invested in having this thing lined up than they are letting on.
I think that’s a fair assessment. I was going off of what was told (explicitly “I don’t want to have my character locked down, I want to explore all of the people on the game, having this hook in the background means we have story even if we don’t date”)
HOWEVER. At the end, when you did the “you must hate me, we used to rp and then it stopped and I wasn’t sure if it was me or you just got busy”, that’s also something that pings my uh oh detectors when talking to people.
Yeah. I left it in there in the interests of full disclosure and not hiding anything. I’ve seen since then in reading some of the recent threads how that is something that can be manipulative, but really that was my trying to give her a ripcord if there was something bad from the past.
We talked through it on the Discord. Long story short - we had planned to do some RP on a different game, it didn’t happen because she stopped playing there for a period because her work got super busy, and I hadn’t pestered her on Discord because I figured it was either that (and she couldn’t) or it was because of me (and she wouldn’t want to hear from me).
But yeah, not the best look as a last line. But like I said, I am doing my best to be honest, upfront, and transparent, because I really and truly believe that I did everything in my power to be up front throughout this whole thing.
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@bailey said in Bailey Fork:
Oh, we were checking in constantly. After the last line of this log, it was all on Discord.
Never go off game.
Off game communication: not even once.
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@bailey I get it. Like, that’s something I could see myself saying, for sure, in an insecure moment chatting with someone. We are all human out here! But it WOULD make me cringe away from someone else saying it.
See, this is why I always counsel people to just not talk ooc. Become unknowable. Only play on games that do not allow players. Evaporate. It’s the only way to be safe.
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@STD said in Bailey Fork:
@bailey said in Bailey Fork:
Oh, we were checking in constantly. After the last line of this log, it was all on Discord.
Never go off game.
Off game communication: not even once.
Yep. Lesson learned. Never again.
That was the only person I was communicating with from that game off game, at her request. Regrets abound.
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@Meg said in Bailey Fork:
Here’s the conversation taken from Discord BEFORE Bailey had even gone on a date with the other character. It was because I alerted the other player OOCly that there might be triggering things (I thought a child by another woman might be triggering) if they ended up getting involved. The other player just said she didn’t want a love triangle, I told her I didn’t either, and then I had the below conversation with Player 1.
I really do not know how I could have been more emphatic in stating what I was looking to do at this point and there the two characters were. In my mind, there was no ambiguity and I was not “trying to play two players at once”, I had literally said “My character is not pursuing you”.
Me:
I was trying to be very respectful of you because the one immutable thing about all of what we are talking about is that TheDaughter is CountrySingerGirl’s daughter, and I didn’t want you to be locked into having to deal with Bailey in her life if you weren’t sure about that. Because as a character, Bailey can walk out on them (which is not what he would do, for the record, just comparing relative flexibility) but CountrySingerGirl can’t. So to me, it was way, way more important that you feel comfortable with where things were.Her:
Yet I made her baileys in record speed because I thought and had every reason to think we were investing in this story even if we didn’t know what the last page of the story looks like
Idk how else to show that I’m serious about this plotMe:
I don’t know yet what I want end game because I don’t know how things are going to play out, how the characters are going to interact, and all of that. You said the same thing. So we can guide them into a pre-determined outcome if we wanted to, or we could leave it up to things happening organically.Her:
I’m not interested in just being his baby mamaMe:
That wasn’t at all ever the idea that I had in mind.Her:
Me either but this TheOtherWoman stuff is making it a little bit complicatedMe:
It is.Her:
And I don’t want a love triangle either
Especially with herMe:
Nor do I.
I get that.Her:
And even this stuff about them being on their own and finding each other again later - like we’ve discussed - can’t exist if you aren’t ooc committed to that
That’s what I thought we were doing but that doesn’t exist while also talking to TheOtherWomans player about romantic plots long termMe:
Right now Bailey and CountrySingerGirl aren’t together. They are good friends that have a secret between them (well, secret to one, at least), some past traumas, and some underlying resentment that each has. It’s a complicated and beautiful relationship just at that, but right now they aren’t together. They could get together in the future, but they have things they need to work through. And that could be a good story. But it’s not the only way that that story can go.Her:
Right but they can’t if you’re making other romantic connections
Me:
I don’t know if there is a romantic plot long term or short term between Bailey and TheOtherWoman. He asked her out. They haven’t even had the date. It might go well. It might be horribly. Who knows.
That’s literally what you told me to do.Her:
And especially when you’re talking ooc to other players and giving them an impression that what’s in the past won’t complicate it
Yeah but it’s the ooc convoMe:
I literally said it absolutely would complicate it.Her:
You said no love triangle
And this absolutely involved my gameMe:
Right. I said I wouldn’t try to dangle both. If Bailey decides to be with CountrySingerGirl, he will be CountrySingerGirl. Period.Her:
And should have been brought up
Right but oocMe:
This conversation just happened less than an hour ago.Her:
I thought he’d pick CountrySingerGirl
I didn’t know I’d be up against TheOtherWoman
On
OkMe:
I can’t say right now who he’d pick because you said you wanted it to be organic and you wanted to see how it developed.Her:
This is the deal either the goal is bailey and CountrySingerGirl together later
Or not
If they date others in the meantime fine but the ooc convo has to be clear that they will break up
And if you want they can be together now and instead of playing it out ic we play out if they can last ic
But this is too much and I’m not going to put myself in a situation where I’m constantly worried about who you’re playing with
But I can’t do this especially with that player when I’ve spent a year being second choice to her on another game
And cross my fingers that maybe it won’t work outMe:
I don’t want to put you in a difficult position. And I’m sorry that this is doing that.Her:
I just don’t trust that with this level of wills they won’t they with TheOtherWoman that there is room for CountrySingerGirl
And their will they won’t they plot
Which is what we also discussed
And why there was open endedness
If was always will they won’t they but yeah probably they’re perfectMe:
Is this because it is TheOtherWoman, specifically? Because you had very much been saying before we set anything about TheDaughter that you thought we shouldn’t set anything about CountrySingerGirl and Bailey. I offered to at the time, and you said we shouldn’t (and gave good reasons why not).Her:
Things evolved ic for us too and I trusted you more
And you never said what you’re anged
Wanted *
I was largely keeping it open to not trap you
Because you weren’t being clear
Just asking me
Which is different than “I want”Me:
That’s what I always do, though. I’m always trying to get a sense of what my RP partner wants.Her:
But I thought it was implied that we were hoping they’d be togetherMe:
And I act accordingly.Her:
And i had reassurance that TheOtherWoman wasn’t a romantic interestMe:
But you communicated something different than what you are communicating now, and I don’t know if you changed your mind since then or what. I guess maybe you did, because I have no reason to think you aren’t being transparent. But I didn’t realize how much your motivations and desires had changed.Her:
And I thought if one came up that was serious enough to cause this whole mess that I’d know and be a consideration
I just trusted you
I thought that CountrySingerGirl was the focus for Bailey and therefore why lock it in so tightly?
If she is the romantic goal there isn’t a reason to lock you down and limit your rp especially when told the character is the type to focus on one person. All of that had me feeling like we were on the same page for long game but could indeed let things unfold organically
Everyone I’ve talked to I’ve said yeah who knows how it ends up but Bailey is CountrySingerGirl’s person
It’s a clear communication since CountrySingerGirl has met Bailey that any romantic plots likely will end with her and Bailey. Likely. Idk for sure. But likely.
It’s a respect for you and what we’ve discussed without knowing if and how they get there but prioritizing you
That’s why it was open ended. That’s why I said not to slap a label. It’s an understanding and respect that this is what we are working towards without having to write it in blood
And I was given reasons to think you were prioritizing me too. It’s why I was so confident about making TheDaughter baileys
It wasn’t to play baileys baby mama so he can be with TheOtherWoman who I was told was not a romantic interest and deffo not to the level of discussing ooc with TheOtherWomanMe:
Sorry, had to field a phone call.
So, I get all of that. I do. And I realize that we are where we are right now. I see how we got here. And I get it.
I don’t know that I can 100% commit to Bailey never having any other possible interests than CountrySingerGirl. And I realize that may be a deal breaker for you at this point, and if it is, I am really and truly sorry. But that’s very different than what we had talked about, and you had suggested the exact opposite when we first started talking.Her:
I think you just found something you like better
I have been clear about rooting for Bailey and CountrySingerGirl
And have said those exact words
Idk what you thought that meantMe:
one sec, phone again, sorryHer:
And 100% wasn’t the goal. I never wanted to lock you in but fuck you are giving me mixed messages with needing definitive but not being able to know things 100%Me:
sorry, having a bit of an RL crisis here I had to tamp down.
Let me try to be 100% clear then.
Again, I am really, really sorry about all of this. The last thing I was trying to do was cause another OOC mess.
It’s not a matter of finding anything I like better. It’s not a judgement or a value or a ranking or anything like that.Her:
I think you don’t understand that when people are investing in your character and story that they are not doing it just for background
Especially with romantics
I didn’t go and plot with ANOTHER CHARACTER for any reason but to deepen our plot
Active investmentMe:
I didn’t say it was just for background.Her:
Even if the last page isn’t agreed upon
Or we want to keep some elements open ended you made a commitment to me as a writing partner that we are trying to see this through
The ic part isn’t the problem
Bailey and TheOtherWoman can go on a date - whatever
But then talking bailey romance with another writer kind of is
Idk if you talked about CountrySingerGirl to TheOtherWoman
But the first thing should have been Bailey is pretty involved with CountrySingerGirl
Idk if they will be end game
But he’s very involved romantically with her
As an example
That’s how you keep from stepping in shitMe:
I literally brought up to TheOtherWoman OOC before anything that could actually be considered a date that there is a lot of drama around Bailey that could and likely will come up if anything happened romantically between them. And I told her I’d tell her all of it if she wanted to know, she said she’d rather just play it but had a few things she wanted to avoid. I asked her what those were, because if they were anything that I knew would come up, I’d want to tell her before anything happened so we could immediately fizzle anything romantic. Like if she didn’t want to deal with a guy that had a kid, or got his best friend killed, or whatever. She said she wanted no love triangles, explaining that if TheOtherWoman and Bailey got together and then he decided to get with his high school sweeatheart and break up with TheOtherWoman, that’s fine, she just didn’t want him dangling the two at the same time. And that’s when I promised her that wouldn’t happen. In my mind, thinking, if things happened and he got back with CountrySingerGirl, he would immediately tell TheOtherWoman ICly (and give her a heads up OOCly) and the two would break up, and that would be that.
I have tried to do everything I can to be above board. When we started talking a bit more and I realized who you were, I immediately told you who I was despite knowing that there was history there that could turn out unfavorable for me, because I wanted to be transparent even if it went against my own interest.Me (replying to “But he’s very involved romantically with her”):
But he’s not. We talked about that, and decided that he WASN’T. He has a strong affection for her, but at this point, it’s platonic and has been platonic for years. That was what you suggested.Her:
We talked about then finding each others beds
And that still being an ongoing thing
That’s how TheDaughter ended up existingMe:
We decided TheDaughter was the result of a fling that they had when he visited her in Nashville while she was on the rocks with an abusive manipulate record producer.Her:
That instanceMe:
When both of them were hurting and in bad places.Her:
We have discussed warm bedsMe:
And that they hadn’t done anything else since then.To clarify this last point, there were never any scenes between the characters that were sexual, the characters had hooked up for the fling during the summer years ago (we never really settled whether they had had sex then, but were leaning towards them not), and then we decided that the daughter came about from a weekend they spent together two years prior, and they hadn’t done anything sexual or romantic since.
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@bailey My guy, I know you’re trying to prove your innocence here but this is honestly pretty yikes all around. Would I have banned you if I were the admin and you were on my game? ehhh, it would depend on the circumstances and the other party involved but you both were pretty clearly into the drama and angst until it didn’t suit you guys anymore.
My suggestion? Don’t ever get yourself into a situation where you are even remotely love triangling with two PCs unless you super trust both people, know them VERY well, and have the emotional maturity and security to handle that kind of RP. Otherwise, it just turns into who wins and who loses and it’s not fun.
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@bear_necessities said in Bailey Fork:
@bailey My guy, I know you’re trying to prove your innocence here but this is honestly pretty yikes all around. Would I have banned you if I were the admin and you were on my game? ehhh, it would depend on the circumstances and the other party involved but you both were pretty clearly into the drama and angst until it didn’t suit you guys anymore.
My suggestion? Don’t ever get yourself into a situation where you are even remotely love triangling with two PCs unless you super trust both people, know them VERY well, and have the emotional maturity and security to handle that kind of RP. Otherwise, it just turns into who wins and who loses and it’s not fun.
Yeah. This was definitely my take-away.
Like I said, I really feel I didn’t do anything dishonest or gaslighty, I got into a messy situation and I tried what I thought was my best to communicate to all parties whenever it became relevant to do that. Compared and contrasted to some of the other threads, I had no secret scenes, I wasn’t trying to hide my RP from anyone, I was proactively telling other folks before the scenes were posted things that happened ICly.
I’ve been trying to go back and figure out what I could have done differently, and what it’s boiling down to was “I shouldn’t have gone in with that kind of hook” in the first place.
So, like I said. If I stick around in the hobby, no preplanned OOC relationships, minimal “character background history” planning, just whatever happens IC happens IC.
As good as storytelling drama is, it’s not worth the OOC drama.
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My dude.
If you had shown me the logs of CountrySingerGirl telling you she wanted it pre planned you’d get back together I wouldn’t have banned you.
This is what she showed me. Black is CountrySingerGirl, blue is the daughter, and red is Bailey.
That being said, I apologize for your banning, given what you’ve shown now you didn’t deserve it.
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@Cobalt said in Bailey Fork:
My dude.
If you had shown me the logs of CountrySingerGirl telling you she wanted it pre planned you’d get back together I wouldn’t have banned you.
That being said, I apologize for your banning, given what you’ve shown now you didn’t deserve it.Thank you. That means a lot to me.
As I said before, I think you’ve been very fair to everyone, and had to put up with a LOT of crap, and I am truly sorry that I added to that headache.
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@bailey Honestly, mixing yourself up in the threads where Ruiz and Macha were being discussed did you no favors. While I am disinclined to reading your logs with a fine eye and have only LIGHTLY SKIMMED, I do think you mostly just got in a messy situation there, and have some past history you need to work on.
So do all of us, though. Good luck going forward.
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All of that happened in the span of 2 days? I feel like that log is more OOC planning than I’ve done on every Ares game in the past 2 years. Most of my DMs go something like this.
“Hello! Would you like to do X? Do you think your character might have connection Y with mine?”
“Sure! Are you fine with Z and B?”
“That sounds good! I can set.”
But I’m glad you got this sorted out. I hope things go better for you next time.
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I think pre-planning can be fun, and even a Good Idea, especially if you’re looking for something that’s potentially intense or sensitive. Being on the same, explicitly stated page about what the expectations are for a connection isn’t bad!
But it ultimately does come down to being able to trust another player, because unfortunately, people will absolutely agree to X while wanting Y and figure they can just “persuade you later”.
