“All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour
-
@Pavel said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
@Gashlycrumb I’ve got a couple of working sub-hypotheses, but thematic spillover is definitely one I’m tentatively hopeful for. Not that I’m “hopeful” about any being right, but you know what I mean.
For the interested, here are my general hypothetical reasons behind my overall thesis:
Thematic Spillover, where the tone and emotional content of the game world shape how players interact OOC;
Systemic Enabling, where the structure of the game makes certain behaviours easier or more rewarding;
Norm Internalisation, where patterns of behaviour become normalised within a specific community culture;
Demographic Affinity, where different genres attract different types of players with differing tendencies; and
Legacy Culture, where older habits and traditions—both good and bad—are carried over from game to game.
ETA: Obviously this isn’t a super serious research study, results won’t be conclusive or even generalisable (that is to say applicable to a population larger than, but including, the participants). And these hypotheses aren’t the only possible answers, but if I wanted to check every single thought I’ve had on the topic I’d be doing a doctoral study and I don’t hate myself that much.
If you’re not familiar with Geek Social Fallacies, you may want to take a look at that, too. It took the White Wolf game servers by storm back in the early '00s and they’re generally something that I think are applicable to a broad swath not only of genres, but hobbies and subcultures. I’ve been in this hobby since '99 and I’ve seen the behavior in the thread where you first mention this idea happen in World of Darkness games, two different permutations of Five Rings Online (which was Legend of the Five Rings), I saw it on Arx, I saw it on two different Ares games with very different themes…
And honestly, I’ve seen some of the worst offenders that I’ve known in the 20+ years I’ve been hanging around doing this on different games, with different systems, and different genres. My guess is norm internalization, but with norms that are older than my time in the hobby and, in fact, are probably older than I am. (They said while quietly eyeing the SCA.)
-
@Aria I was going back and forth on norm internalisation, honestly. While it’s obviously a big part of game culture, and culture in general really, I think that would show up more in data biasing than as a measurable thing at least at this stage.
If I want to do more than satisfy my curiosity and make some very, very broad strokes generalisations (including saying p-value to sound smart), I’d want to do a more qualitative follow up with thematic and/or IPA analysis of answers to longer form questions. Probably in the flavour of an interview of some kind.
Great now I’m thinking about better study design and sampling… If I have to break out SPSS for this, I’m blaming you.
ETA: I’d want a bigger and hopefully more varied sample, regardless. Thus far, 86.7% of respondents answered, “15+ years” for question 1. >_>
-
@Pavel said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
(including saying p-value to sound smart)
Don’t start talking about null hypothesis testing in front of everyone unless the p-value is large enough to share with the whole class.
-
@Aria I mean I’ve only done a tiny analysis on this preliminary data but if I said Kruskal–Wallis H test (H(6) = 16.24, p = .006) would that be exciting enough?
-
@Pavel said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
@Aria I mean I’ve only done a tiny analysis on this preliminary data but if I said Kruskal–Wallis H test (H(6) = 16.24, p = .006) would that be exciting enough?
I mean, you were supposed to laugh at me comparing p-values to the kid who brings in cookies but doesn’t want to share with the whole class, but yeah, dude, a p-value of .006 is pretty surprising, at least to me. How many responses have you had?
-
@Aria To be honest the most surprising thing is that people are replying at all. But I’ve only had the fifteen replies, for which I’m obviously grateful and enthusiastic, but it’s not a very large sample.
I’m not exactly surprised by the result itself, I wouldn’t have the hypotheses otherwise. But so strong a showing does make me concerned I’ve got some bias in the data. Which I do, to be fair, selection bias being the most obvious.
-
@Pavel I haven’t answered it yet, but one thing I was considering when looking at it was definitely, “Well, yes, while I can think of examples like this on more games that I’ve played on than not, a lot of those examples happen to come from WoD games because I’ve played in that genre more than any other.”
So that would definitely skew my own answers. Meanwhile, though I’ve since played a few L&L and even a Pern game, I avoided them for a really long time because in the WoD communities that I came from in the late 90s and early 00s, they tended to have really bad reputations among the playerbase, specifically around spotlight hogging and IC/OOC emotional bleed. Kind of ironic, really.
-
@Aria That WoD bias is something I’m keenly aware of, but honestly when it comes time to report on the info this survey has gathered I think that’s going to be an important point to remember going forward when we, this forum, talk about problems we’re coming at it from a primarily X, Y, or Z-shaped lens so that’s going to skew our responses.
But so long as everyone treats any results as a “hey isn’t this anecdotally interesting” rather than “we have proof that L&L games literally cause spontaneous combustion” that’s all I really want. It’s just neat to think about these things in a pseudo-empirical way.
-
@Pavel said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
“we have proof that L&L games literally cause spontaneous combustion”
It’s because of all the bared ankles, right? It’s gotta be!
…well that and the incest.
-
@Pavel said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
Thematic Spillover, where the tone and emotional content of the game world shape how players interact OOC;
Systemic Enabling, where the structure of the game makes certain behaviours easier or more rewarding;
Norm Internalisation, where patterns of behaviour become normalised within a specific community culture;
Demographic Affinity, where different genres attract different types of players with differing tendencies; and
Legacy Culture, where older habits and traditions—both good and bad—are carried over from game to game.FWIW I think there’s a lot of good ideas here. My only quibble is with the focus on “genre”.
Little House on the Prairie and Deadwood are both in the “Historical” genre and further in the “Western” sub-genre, but they are wildly different in tone and themes. RDM Battlestar and the original Battlestar are literally set in the same universe/storyline, yet also have very different tones. WoD can be vampires or hunters. Fantasy can be Game of Thrones or Willow.
The way you structure your game absolutely influences player behaviors. But even if you argue that genre influences game structure by popular convention, the structure is still a choice (not directly tied to genre). Feels more like correlation than causation.
-
@Pavel said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
Thematic Spillover, where the tone and emotional content of the game world shape how players interact OOC;
I think this (which is called bleed in a lot of academic essays on roleplaying) will exist regardless of anything else on the list.
Also, Systemic Enabling, Norm Internalization, and Legacy Culture could be merged into one single hypothesis about the active pattern of misbehavior found in a lot of roleplaying communities (these three things along with poor handling of Thematic Spillover are why a lot of LARP organizations such at the MES, NERO, and others end up turning into cesspools of irredeemable behavior.
There are a lot of interesting articles on bleed / thematic spillover and other OOC dynamics coming from the European RP communities (especially those involved in Nordic LARP), and most of them are published for free every year as part of some of the major RP conventions that happen.
-
@Faraday said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
FWIW I think there’s a lot of good ideas here. My only quibble is with the focus on “genre”.
Little House on the Prairie and Deadwood are both in the “Historical” genre and further in the “Western” sub-genre, but they are wildly different in tone and themes.
This. I can think of a couple of WoD games that were remarkable for their lack of any of these issues. They were both historicals, and one was really “WoD PC creatures vs. The Mummy (1999)” – a wildly different WoD tone.
@MisterBoring said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
Also, Systemic Enabling, Norm Internalization, and Legacy Culture could be merged into one single hypothesis about the active pattern of misbehavior found in a lot of roleplaying communities
This. The systemic enabling is part of the legacy culture and norms. So when I propose running a WoD game without sphere-separation, people spaz about it. Propose mandatory alt-transparency, same.
-
@Gashlycrumb said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
So when I propose running a WoD game without sphere-separation, people spaz about it. Propose mandatory alt-transparency, same.
It really feels like proposing any tools that would help staff do more to protect a game from toxic players gets shot down very quickly, even by players who aren’t toxic in their own right.
Proud Member of the Pro-Mummy Alliance
-
@MisterBoring I found that just doing it was fine with the ‘Game of Thrones’ MU, no objections from players (but a fair amount of “that will never work” from the peanut gallery) but just mention it concerning a planned or merely talked-about WoD MU and there’s a lot of squawking about the privacy and theme and how-horrible-I-would-never-play-it.
I think the legacy culture issue is strong in WoD. And that a lot of the toxic shit is coming from inside the staffroom.
-
@MisterBoring said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
It really feels like proposing any tools that would help staff do more to protect a game from toxic players gets shot down very quickly, even by players who aren’t toxic in their own right.
They can only shoot down what staff lets them. The game-runner is the one in charge. Lots of players are quick to claim something will never work, and often that’s just not the case. In any event, I’d rather have a safe and friendly game than a toxic one, even if that means some players won’t play.
-
@Faraday said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
In any event, I’d rather have a safe and friendly game than a toxic one, even if that means some players won’t play.
This 100000%.
-
@Faraday said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
Little House on the Prairie and Deadwood are both in the “Historical” genre and further in the “Western” sub-genre, but they are wildly different in tone and themes. RDM Battlestar and the original Battlestar are literally set in the same universe/storyline, yet also have very different tones. WoD can be vampires or hunters. Fantasy can be Game of Thrones or Willow.
All true, unfortunately lines have to be drawn vaguely somewhere.
@Faraday said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
The way you structure your game absolutely influences player behaviors. But even if you argue that genre influences game structure by popular convention, the structure is still a choice (not directly tied to genre). Feels more like correlation than causation.
Sure, but we won’t know that with any degree of surety if we don’t check. So we should check.
@MisterBoring said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
could be merged into one single hypothesis
It’s all a single hypothesis broken down into sub-hypotheses for ease of conversation.
-
@Pavel said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
Sure, but we won’t know that with any degree of surety if we don’t check. So we should check.
You’re only going to get surety from a carefully-crafted study that isolates variables and has a meaningful sample size. With the limited number of MUs and an obvious muddying between genre and other factors (like different game design/policy within a genre, or bleed, which crosses genres and even game types) you’re not going to have any confidence that genre is a causative factor.
If you have fun looking at the results, cool - more power to you. I just think we should be realistic about what a survey like this is (and isn’t) going to tell us.
-
@Faraday said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
I just think we should be realistic about what a survey like this is (and isn’t) going to tell us.
Indeed, which is why I’ve said as much.
@Pavel said in “All the World’s a MUSH”: Genre as Destiny in Collaborative Roleplay Behaviour:
But so long as everyone treats any results as a “hey isn’t this anecdotally interesting” rather than “we have proof that L&L games literally cause spontaneous combustion” that’s all I really want. It’s just neat to think about these things in a pseudo-empirical way.
ETA: That said, when I say “we should check” I don’t mean “this survey is that check” I meant that checking should be done. Even if we only find some minor correlation based on limited anecdote, that’s more information than we had before, and it’s interesting.
Anyone seeking deep scientific meaning from a google form survey based on a throw away joke on a niche forum is missing the point.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
BE AN ADULT -
It’ll be fun to see the results, but there’s no way to control for confounding variables unless you get a cumbersome amount of data or build experimental MUs.
I bet If I made a My Little Pony '80’s edition MUSH and ran it like WoD with separate Pony, Unicorn, Sea Pony and Pegasus spheres (and winged unicorns a super-special restricted sphere, oooh) and a lot of seckritz and attempts at equine intrigue and very little transparency, it would, like a WoD MU, produce some high-level vicious fuckery if it lasted any length of time.
"This is Liberty Hall; you can spit on the mat and call the cat a bastard!"
– A. Bertram Chandler
