Non-toxic PvP
-
@Jumpscare said in Non-toxic PvP:
Non-consensual character death is the least fun and most toxic outcome.
I think this differs player by player. There’s a small subsection of players that are fully okay with non-consensual character death because they (myself included) chose to allow that as a potential for their PC’s plot line. Death requiring consent should be the standard, but with the ability to opt out if one chooses.
-
Honestly any RP result that takes a character permanently out of play is one that I don’t want to have to be the one to do to someone else & will bend over backwards regardless of IC logic in order to avoid so doing. Consent should be required both for dying and making me kill you.
-
Ima big care bear, I wanna PvE.
If anything has to be PvP, I’d rather it be fun IC drama like, “Oh my gods can you believe Davion wore white after Labor Day” or something dumb like that. I would rather focus on making my character go through their own issues/face their own demons than have to worry PvP.
-
@Jumpscare said in Non-toxic PvP:
Another thing that you need to have zero tolerance for is what I’ll call the pacifist. The pacifist is a player archetype who will join a moderate or high conflict group, then do as much as they can for their faction without engaging in the central conflict. Then, when they get backed into a position where they’re called upon to resolve a conflict by fighting it out, they’ll agree to the fight but refuse to fight back, letting the opposing side win, in order to give the other players the most unsatisfying resolution possible. The two most notable offenders on Silent Heaven had to be removed from the game for their un-collaborative behavior.
Can you please clarify this and maybe give it an example? It doesn’t seem inherently toxic to either play a non-combat character in a conflict org or to refuse to give Mr. Big Fighty their ego ups in beating on a weaker character. I can actually think of several ways this would be intriguing.
-
Can you please clarify this and maybe give it an example? It doesn’t seem inherently toxic to either play a non-combat character in a conflict org or to refuse to give Mr. Big Fighty their ego ups in beating on a weaker character. I can actually think of several ways this would be intriguing.
In good non-toxic PvP environments, the game is designed with a lot of built in conflict invitation flags so players can signal to other players what they want. The health of the environment absolutely depends on players using these flags accurately.
Someone who joins a high-conflict faction is signalling that they want to participate in that conflict and should not do that if they can’t OOCly handle it. Pacifists don’t just sit out, they tend to belittle everyone participating and take a revisionist approach to the faction’s raison d’être. Just hope they weren’t given a high value macguffin to protect, they might just hand it over because fighting is wrong.
If your game has an area called Murder Alley and it’s well known that going there signals that you are interested in being mugged… sometimes pacifists will wander up and down and snap OOCly at anyone who steps in front of them, and eventually it stops being a reliable signal to find RP.
It’s absolutely infuriating for everybody trying to participate in the game’s design as intended. It would be SO easy for the pacifist to join the kittens and hugs faction and avoid Murder Alley.
Not to mention that standing there condemning violence while someone punches you in the face is something only video game characters can do. Please… don’t.
-
@Juniper I dunno, that sounds like wrongfunning someone for playing the game differently. Pacifists literally do exist, and a pacifist trapped in a high-conflict faction could be an interesting character concept if done well.
Of course there should be IC consequences. Beyond the immediate butt-kicking, maybe they get in trouble, get kicked out of the faction, etc. But if there’s a reason for it, who cares? It’s still a story. I can’t see how the opposing character is harmed just because the scene didn’t go the way they wanted.
Now there’s certainly a line where what you describe can become trolling. If they are violating established rules on the game (like if it says you MUST fight) or if staff have told them they can’t play a pacifist - that’s different. But a blanket prohibition against pacifist chars seems weird to me.
-
I don’t know the situation @Jumpscare was alluding to, but I immediately assumed — along, I think, with @Juniper — that the issue being described was actually a player who wrongfuns other people for engaging in the established conflict theme, rather than the other way around.
I’ve dealt with this type of player and it’s incredibly frustrating to have someone treat you like you’re a bad mean person OOCly for, say, trying to rob people while being a member of the Thieves’ Guild, lurking in a shifty alley no one is forced to go to. Especially when you’re being compared to other members of the Thieves’ Guild who don’t steal because stealing is wrong, and they just joined to vibe with their friends, but now everyone is treating them like established representatives of the Thieves’ Guild and saying no one is forcing you to be the kind who steals, that’s just you being a jerk. Expecting people to uphold the theme they signed up for isn’t wrongfun, IMO.
I thought @Jumpscare’s suggestions were pretty useful and I ended up making some notes: have clear expectations for how factions engage, and I think I might even write up an OOC newbie guide on “which faction should you join” that spells stuff out like, if you don’t like combat then Engineers or Cooks’ Guild is a good fit, and if you aren’t comfortable with high risk then don’t join the Militia.
-
@Kestrel said in Non-toxic PvP:
Expecting people to uphold the theme they signed up for isn’t wrongfun, IMO.
To a point, I agree, but defining that line can be tricky. Like I agree that wrongfunning the cutthroat thief is wrong, but so is wrongfunning the thief who just got pressured into it by their friends and is actually conflicted about it. BOTH are playing within the theme, they’re just playing differently.
If staff doesn’t want a conflicted thief because it isn’t in line with their vision of the theme, they shouldn’t approve that character in the first place. Similarly if they’re worried about the hard edge of the Thieves Guild being diluted by too many “exceptions”, they can control that too.
-
Yeah if the intended message was “people who OOCly wrongfun players for following the literal theme and are a tax on staff with their complaints about how the murder guild murders people and won’t reform” that makes way more sense.
But if you’re a mousey accountant for the murder guild and all you do is launder money and you don’t want to be murdering people but the cops come and don’t have enough fun shooting you in the face because you just lay down and die, I don’t see a problem.
-
@Faraday said in Non-toxic PvP:
Pacifists literally do exist, and a pacifist trapped in a high-conflict faction could be an interesting character concept if done well.
There’s a difference between being an IC pacifist and being an OOC pacifist that prefers everyone be pacifist, which I think is the version @Juniper was commenting about.
-
For clarification, here’s a re-enactment of the Problematic Pacifist. Assume that the Problematic Pacifist has much higher stats than the MacGuffin Holder, making it so the MacGuffin Holder can’t get around the Problematic Pacifist without engaging in combat.
MacGuffin Holder: It’s time for me to bring the MacGuffin to the danger pit.
Problematic Pacifist: That’s a bad idea. You should take it to the safety pit where my faction wants it to be.
MH: I’ve been vocal about my plans to do this for the past week.
PP: And my protests have gone ignored.
MH: If you have a problem with it, meet me at the danger pit and try to take it from me.
PP: I’ll meet you there, but I won’t fight you.
MH: I’m not giving it up without a fight.
PP: Too late, I’m already here and standing in your way.
MH: Move.
PP: No.
MH: sighs, attacks
PP: Now you can all see how much of a bloodthirsty villain MH is!
MH: (Having to fight a rival who isn’t fighting back just so you can use it against my character isn’t fun.)
PP: (I’m sorry but I’m just playing my character.)
MH: keeps going just to get this plot point resolved
PP: gets KOed, recovers later
MH: The deed is done. The MacGuffin has exploded.
PP: Sure, you feel proud now, but how many innocent people who weren’t fighting back did you enjoy stabbing at the danger pit?
MH: goes to Storytellers to get this behavior to stop
In this way, the Problematic Pacifist is able to weaponize their pacifism against their rivals and generally bring the mood of the game down by holding those forced situations against the person who attacked them.
