Re: Dies Irae
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It seems like this place kind of suffers from a lack of experience. I haven’t dealt with all the staff, but it seems like some are just having their growing pains with being a staffer and making decisions. Marid clearly knows what they are doing both mechanically and thematically. If that was the experience everyone was getting when dealing with staff, the place would be hopping. But since Marid seems to be deep into messing with the code, the players are left with… everyone else. But there’s a sharp, steep drop off from interacting with Marid to dealing with some other staffers.
It feels like they kinda just forgot what fun was about. It seems like they built this place and then certain staffers never wanted to give up control. You app a PC and immediately they go about trying to turn your PC into their NPC, talking to you about your character like they know it better than you, telling you who your character is and what it needs. Its more than just condescending and talking down to you (which is bad enough, I know) but in my case, I was specifically told what abilities and secondary abilities (???) I needed to take, some of which didn’t have anything to do with my concept, they just wanted to see it. And oh, yeah, this character is a vanilla mortal. Not some high powered supernatural combat twink that needs to be reigned in for fear of breaking the sphere or the game. Just a regular vanilla mortal.
And all that might be worth the grief if something happened with your character once your in play, but like most place, you’re just kind of abandoned to the grid… except with a character that doesn’t feel like yours that you’re no longer excited to play. And only after the fact do you find out the staffer admits that they aren’t the best with (game) mechanics. FFS… So why are you badgering me about what abilities I should be taking if you aren’t even sure what abilities apply to what actions?
That said, this is just my experience. So YMMV.
When you go into the game you can feel the lack of engagement. If you’re on for any substantial amount of time you can see all the names of characters that come through then just stop showing up.
I do want to say that I don’t think that any of the above is done with maliciousness. I don’t think they are bad people, just not very experienced with staffing and very out of touch with the player experience they are providing. I know they side loaded a staff coordinator who has been helpful, but it looks like most of the horses (maybe just some) have already gotten out of the barn.
P.S. To DI: The fact that you’ve got Tijuana relegated to one grid square with no builds is… not… great. I don’t want to assume the reason, but it would appear to me that either your cultural or political biases are showing - or you’re just not that familiar with San Diego. Maybe a mix of all of them. But just on the population numbers alone, you should be able to tell that you’re ignoring a huge resource and influence. Tijuana is the most populace city in the area. It is bigger than the largest three (or four) cities in San Diego county combined. Excluding LA, there’s not another city bigger than it for 1500 miles. Just saying. From a gameplay/thematic standpoint, that’s a huge missed opportunity. Culturally, a bit cringe.
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@Jynxbox Okay, I at least somewhat agree with the majority of what you’re saying, except that last part.
The game’s been open in beta for a handful of months, and the primary setting is San Diego. So that’s where the work should be done. Staff have previously indicated that they’d like to expand Tijuana at some point, but it’s not the primary focus of their efforts.
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@Pavel said in Re: Dies Irae:
@labsunlimited Indeed, though my inference was that this “one time account” poster may well be Polk in disguise.
literally my only interaction with him ever was him as Alejandro, it’s the second or third WoD game I’ve been on since I was a teenager, but uh idk how to put this politely but he didn’t come off as someone who knew English as a second or third language the way that does
i have frustrations but most of them that aren’t philosophical seem consequences of getting approved too early and stuff being changed since
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I think that, fundamentally, there are too many kinds of things to be and not enough stuff actually happening to encourage that kind of population. Vampire is, as always, the simplest as it only had (prior to closing) one faction available for play with a limited number of clans that didn’t require pre-approval. Mage, however and only as an example, has the Traditions, the Technocracy, Nephandi, and Orphans available. I don’t play a mage yet, but it’s easy to look at that, or the sheer number of available kinds of Fera, and feel as if there’s a distinct lack of focus.
In addition to this broad, depth-less array of options, the game is very much in beta. I can’t speak to the suggestion of staff ineptitude as previously described, but with the hanging potential of the one sphere I’m in having its entire history rewritten or otherwise changed is more than a little irritating even though it’s an expected part of a beta opening.
I’ve also previously mentioned the OOC Conflict policy as a cause of some modicum of concern. I’m not the kind of person to go running around trying to throw down with everyone from The Other Team, but a big part of playing antagonists is to be antagonistic and if you don’t want to allow that you absolutely need to come up with a justification for it. The suggested “the in-character reasoning, if necessary, can be that the resources required to oppose another player character directly will vastly outstrip those required to pursue any given goal” (Dies Irae MU, 2025) is a, frankly, lazy suggestion that puts the onus on the players to ignore sometimes key parts of a faction’s ethos instead of staff creating a story-driven reason for old grudges and outright wars to be set aside.
Ultimately, I believe the game needs a tighter focus and a more readily described and understood meta-story. It seems to have good bones and the very best of intentions, but right now I couldn’t recommend it.
References
Dies Irae MU. (2025). Policies. Dies Irae MU. https://diesiraemu.com/wiki/policies/ -
@Pavel said in Re: Dies Irae:
@Jynxbox Okay, I at least somewhat agree with the majority of what you’re saying, except that last part.
The game’s been open in beta for a handful of months, and the primary setting is San Diego. So that’s where the work should be done. Staff have previously indicated that they’d like to expand Tijuana at some point, but it’s not the primary focus of their efforts.
I think its more of an issue of what is considered “San Diego”. If you’re building out a city of just over 50k people 25 miles north of the city of San Diego, but ignoring the city of 2 million people 17 miles south… that can make some people feel some kind of way, especially with some of the cross-border themes and culturally-minded beliefs baked into the game. I do get that.
I’d prefer to believe, academically, that political borders and such can be the anchoring point for the decision, for sure. Focusing on San Diego County rather than the City of San Diego. Everyone seems to agree that there’s no malicious intent by the staff, so its no harm.
But I do agree that the proximity and size and political status does make for a big missed opportunity for a more interesting and dynamic game theme, especially in terms of sources of conflict and antagonists. It is tailor made for a MU. Not a BAD thing. Just a disappointing one.
BUT it isn’t one that’s completely wasted yet. I’d encourage them to really take a look at the opportunities there and in the future open it up like a DLC expansion pack with a full complement of themes and integration, not just some grid spaces. Dies Irae: TJ!
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This is wild, I never check this place anymore so I didn’t know we had this long-ish thread.
@Jynxbox said in Re: Dies Irae:
It seems like this place kind of suffers from a lack of experience. I haven’t dealt with all the staff, but it seems like some are just having their growing pains with being a staffer and making decisions. Marid clearly knows what they are doing both mechanically and thematically. If that was the experience everyone was getting when dealing with staff, the place would be hopping. But since Marid seems to be deep into messing with the code, the players are left with… everyone else. But there’s a sharp, steep drop off from interacting with Marid to dealing with some other staffers.
Hi, I’m Marid! And I absolutely, 100% agree. Also, thank you for saying I know what I’m doing, as I’m not sure of that myself most of the time. I’m largely sucked into the code world, so I can’t do as much as I would like to in order to get plot kicked off or to focus on things in the game proper.
My main concern is, and continues to be, the knee-jerk house rule thing. In early days we decided on a rule-by-committee/democratic structure for the game to prevent there from being the kind of godhead or “my way or the highway” sort of figure. This hasn’t turned out very well, IMO, but it’s difficult to redirect a moving train regardless of how slow it is.
I would love to get out of code, but there’s always something. For example, recently I noticed that for whatever reason our places code reverted to a previous build. No idea why, it’s correctly updated in github, but it’s giving an error that I cleared back in early April. So, it continues.
It feels like they kinda just forgot what fun was about. It seems like they built this place and then certain staffers never wanted to give up control. You app a PC and immediately they go about trying to turn your PC into their NPC, talking to you about your character like they know it better than you, telling you who your character is and what it needs.
This is also something that I’ve noticed happening! It goes directly against my personal ethics with regards to how staff should interact with players, which is to be fans of the character. Even if you don’t like the player very much, or you don’t know the player at all (or even if you gasp like the player??) it’s important to remember that we’re all trying to tell a story together. That means we accept the things that you bring and, rather than change the character that is presented, adapt to the best that you can. If you can’t find a middle ground, the character is still viable, but maybe not for what you have on offer immediately. Doesn’t mean you can’t make something else happen in the future.
And all that might be worth the grief if something happened with your character once your in play, but like most place, you’re just kind of abandoned to the grid…
Yes, I really wanted there to be plots set up, but given the revolving door in sphere staff, it’s hard to keep that going. It really kind of started during the initial days of the project, if I’m being honest. We had some very kick-ass Vampire staff who got pissed off at some overreach by another staffer into what they wanted to do, and they left. Rather than just scrap what was there, there was some insistence that we keep going with what was originally created even if the previous staffers weren’t going to be around to consult and keep the vision going.
One of them is making a very cool looking superhero MUSH using Evennia. I’m really stoked for her, and I hate superhero games. It looks fun, though!
And only after the fact do you find out the staffer admits that they aren’t the best with (game) mechanics.
I do want to say that I don’t think that any of the above is done with maliciousness. I don’t think they are bad people, just not very experienced with staffing and very out of touch with the player experience they are providing.
It is absolutely not intended to be malicious. Brass tacks, we needed like… maybe another 4-6 months of germination time before releasing. Some staffers were SUPER excited about spreading the word and brought players onto the Discord early (as much vitriol as there is about the Discord). This was A Bad Move
. I know a thing or two about advertising way too early on account of being the OG creator of the Reach, which had a meme about how many times I’d promised the release date for a while there.I know they side loaded a staff coordinator who has been helpful, but it looks like most of the horses (maybe just some) have already gotten out of the barn.
A lot of folks have burnt out, I think.
Here’s my personal opinion that no one asked for: I don’t think big fuck-all multi-line WoD games work anymore. I think we’re all much older now, we all have many more responsibilities, and we all have specific types of games we want to play. Single or maybe double-sphere games would work better, because of a few things:
a) it focuses the action on a specific theme and creates a strong and clear intent on what sort of game you’re playing;
b) staffers who know those spheres will be able to run those spheres, rather than applying the warm-body problem (get anyone who has a passable understanding or has heard of the game into the hot seat);
c) you might have a smaller population and that might actually not be that bad in the long run, especially if there were multiple single-sphere games that people could bounce between
d) you can be more flexible with your setting;
e) staff will probably be less likely to burn out;
f) I would be less likely to burn out trying to write a bunch of validation code because chimerical items work this way whereas other equipment works this way, but then we have to keep in mind that there are talens, fetishes, and “artifacts” which are from the Ghost Hunters book that we’re referencing for some reason; also that fucking. OOC room. visibility. bug.I also think that new games would benefit from having a development bible. I still have the one I wrote for The Reach. It gave clear guidelines on the history of each sphere, the focus in each sphere, how they applied to the metaplot, how they function within the context of Aleswich and Dunlin’s Point, and what the EOTW scenario looks like to that sphere.
Actually, I’m briefly turning this into Soma’s game design class. Here’s what you want to know about your game:
- Where do you see the game in three years?
- What sort of gameplay do you intend for the game to have?
- How does autonomy work for the individual spheres? To what extent is there a centralized leadership?
- What sort of plots/themes can we run/use in our storytelling?
- What sort of plots/themes can’t we run/use in our storytelling?
- What sphere is absolutely mission critical for the game to keep going?
Here’s my TR answer:
- Game would end in 3 years with a big explosive metaplot thing in which case we’d reopen something depending on the events of the plot.
- Largely story-based with a focus on staff-based stories and some PrP, preventing the game from falling into a sandbox (ultimately kind of failed there)
- Sphere focused with interactions between the groups based around the metaplot and family structure. Individual spheres would be left to their own devices in terms of house rules, with larger structural house rules in place for the rest of the game as they come up. Ex. Changeling staff can HR goblin fruit and contracts all they want, but there are no individual HRs on attributes or skills specific to Changeling that makes them significantly different from the rest of the game.
- Themes are focused on the following genres/themes: Lovecraftian cosmic horror, kitchen-sink horror, mystery
- The core story-based Mage the Awakening elements were not present, high tech stuff is not available as it doesn’t fit in-theme.
- Changeling. Changeling was linked strongly with the Wailing Worm, which was an outer god that tunneled past the Hedge into Arcadia and became a weird amalgam of Keeper and Outer God.
Having something like this can be very useful in determining how to proceed if you suddenly lose staff in one arena (or multiple arenas, or can’t find staff for one group, or you’re facing terminal levels of burnout).
As it stands, Dies Irae has a great shot at being a GarouMUX-but-for-Fera given the way the population is set up, but that would require somehow convincing folks to shutter spheres. The problem being: we don’t know what spheres are required to keep the lights on. We also don’t really know what themes the game has as a whole.
Admittedly I also didn’t suggest this during development, so it’s kind of my own fault for not bringing it up.
P.S. To DI: The fact that you’ve got Tijuana relegated to one grid square with no builds is… not… great. I don’t want to assume the reason, but it would appear to me that either your cultural or political biases are showing - or you’re just not that familiar with San Diego. Maybe a mix of all of them. But just on the population numbers alone, you should be able to tell that you’re ignoring a huge resource and influence. Tijuana is the most populace city in the area. It is bigger than the largest three (or four) cities in San Diego county combined. Excluding LA, there’s not another city bigger than it for 1500 miles. Just saying. From a gameplay/thematic standpoint, that’s a huge missed opportunity. Culturally, a bit cringe.
Yeah, I agree. Tijuana was originally written in back when we had the aforementioned two vampire staffers. Tijuana in classic WoD is a Sabbat stronghold and where the original crusade for San Diego came from. I think there was more intended from there, but it would have been better to just remove it once we realized there weren’t going to be any real builds or anything of the sort. Tijuana is a massive, sprawling city. It’d be similar to having a game set in Illinois and then Chicago is just one room while the rest of it is set in Naperville, or having your Bordeaux game with one room being Paris.
Edit to add:
@Warma-Sheen said in Re: Dies Irae:But I do agree that the proximity and size and political status does make for a big missed opportunity for a more interesting and dynamic game theme, especially in terms of sources of conflict and antagonists. It is tailor made for a MU. Not a BAD thing. Just a disappointing one.
BUT it isn’t one that’s completely wasted yet. I’d encourage them to really take a look at the opportunities there and in the future open it up like a DLC expansion pack with a full complement of themes and integration, not just some grid spaces. Dies Irae: TJ!
Absolutely this. It’s a great opportunity. We would need more staff to pull it off.
I can state with 100% certainty that it wasn’t intended to be a culturally insensitive thing. The original vamp staffers were both Latin American (not Mexican, but South American) and wanted to include some more specific cultural elements, but left the game before it could be implemented. C’est la vie, but it would probably be for the best if we at least removed the link to Tijuana and sent it over to the OOC builder’s paradise room.
I did want to note, btw: I’m not headstaff there, really. I’m the code lead, and ostensibly the Mage lead though I don’t really have too much time for it, and the Storytelling Coordinator, which I’m not too sure what that means. I was originally brought on to write the metaplot story line and do Mage.
Also: Would be super cool if someone made a Tijuana game, just sayin’.
Thanks for reading this long-ass bullshit lmao
they/them
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@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:
As it stands, Dies Irae has a great shot at being a GarouMUX-but-for-Fera given the way the population is set up, but that would require somehow convincing folks to shutter spheres. The problem being: we don’t know what spheres are required to keep the lights on. We also don’t really know what themes the game has as a whole.
I entirely support a turn towards becoming the San Diego Zoo of Darkness.
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@labsunlimited said in Re: Dies Irae:
@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:
As it stands, Dies Irae has a great shot at being a GarouMUX-but-for-Fera given the way the population is set up, but that would require somehow convincing folks to shutter spheres. The problem being: we don’t know what spheres are required to keep the lights on. We also don’t really know what themes the game has as a whole.
I entirely support a turn towards becoming the San Diego Zoo of Darkness.
If we get rid of the casual 90s racism where every sphere hates eachother, and instead cross-sphere alliances form… the Zoo can also include Fae, Wiznerds, and Vampires!
Unfortunately, no Mummy, so the game is cursed to die, I don’t make the rules.
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@Jennkryst said in Re: Dies Irae:
If we get rid of the casual 90s racism where every sphere hates eachother, and instead cross-sphere alliances form… the Zoo can also include Fae, Wiznerds, and Vampires!
Unfortunately, no Mummy, so the game is cursed to die, I don’t make the rules.
So they should steal the slab again and force the mummy’s curse to return? Nice try, Apophis!
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@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:
Thanks for reading this long-ass bullshit lmao
Who let you out of the code mines?
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@Pavel said in Re: Dies Irae:
@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:
Thanks for reading this long-ass bullshit lmao
Who let you out of the code mines?
I get 45 minutes leisure time per day
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@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:
Brass tacks, we needed like… maybe another 4-6 months of germination time before releasing.
That’s good to know, actually. I didn’t have a great experience, but in my head it is easier to get over it and keep an open mind knowing “the game” wasn’t designed that way, for me to encounter those things.
It is still Beta, though, so it isn’t the worst thing. And I know that these days a lot of games seem to live in Beta and then just use that as an excuse when things aren’t optimal, but it would help people, staff and players, to remember that DI is in a for reals actual Beta phase and that things are still being changed and adjusted.
I think some people I’ve talked to have made a final judgement on it based on where it is at now and the experience they’ve had (and I am probably in that group too if I don’t actively remind myself otherwise). But if there’s still plenty of work planned before settling on “this is the game we want people to play” and presenting it that way then that is promising.
@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:
I did want to note, btw: I’m not headstaff there, really.
…who is? That could be a substantial part of the problem.
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Yeah, I must have missed reading that previously, @somasatori. Your title of “Storytelling Coordinator” sure as hell sounds like a headstaffy one.
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@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:
I did want to note, btw: I’m not headstaff there, really.
…who is? That could be a substantial part of the problem.
We kinda don’t have them? I mean, there are some folks whose words are probably more listened-to than others, like Scylla, me occasionally, and Charybdis, but we’re ostensibly supposed to be doing things democratically.
Edit to add more context: For instance, when we banned Polk, we deliberated about it. I think this probably is not the best way to go about it, especially if there’s someone who’s doing something imminently bannable. Polk didn’t actually do much on DI which would have been considered harmful to anyone, which is why there was a lot of deliberation on the topic (and for transparency’s sake, I abstained – not because I have a particular love for Polk, but because I haven’t had much interaction with the guy outside of “wow, he sure loves crashing games”). He was banned for being Polk, which didn’t sit well with some folks, and that’s okay. I mean, the democratic process is such that it allows for that kind of thing. People are allowed to disagree and voted as such. The vote to ban him won out in the end.
Super worried when we do have an immediately harmful or threatening player, though. Deliberating over the course of a week and a half when Johnny PKGriefing-SexAssaulter is going around committing his namesake is not grounds for a good MUSHing experience.
@Pavel said in Re: Dies Irae:
Yeah, I must have missed reading that previously, @somasatori. Your title of “Storytelling Coordinator” sure as hell sounds like a headstaffy one.
It does, I agree. So the project was originally started by Scylla back in June, around the time NuMetal got crashed (I guess the first time now? The Polk time). I was asked if I could come on to do the Mage stuff and write metaplot details for the game as a whole. After a time, there was a clear indication that we needed some additional guidance in the back end, or someone to be an arbiter, and a vote was called. Charybdis and myself were elected. This was before Kuma had his life explode and couldn’t do code anymore, which is when I inherited that role too. Then I somehow got looped into being a co-lead for Werewolf and Fera.
though I’m fine with my side of the Fera. I handle Mokole, Rokea, Ratkin, and Ananasi and I like my weird little gross/slimy/fish-scented dudes. Nagah’s in there too, but it requires a group app (3), and we all know how easy it is to get a group of people to get rolling on a game.
Anyway, I didn’t really want to be headstaff, especially not in the administrative sense. Storytelling coordinator, to me, means that I manage the theme elements of the game. To paraphrase Hephaestus’ description of how he’s seen it on other games: the role is to ensure consistency and fairness across different groups, that players have adequate hooks into plots and that there are enough staff to run them (HA!).
I’ve done the administrative headstaff thing on three places now (Metro2 [Saturnine], The Reach [Roanoke], Fallcoast [Toska]), and I 100% get burnt out so fast by having to make all of these quibbling little rule calls. It’s why I was cool with Storytelling Coordinator, as it feels more vibes based: coordinating plot, making sure there’s a cohesive story, making sure equal attention is had by all, all that jazz. Sometimes I wonder if I even like WoD all that much anymore. I certainly don’t play it as a TTRPG; I tend to do more PbtA or other hippie-dippy story games. Sometimes I will break out things like Cyberpunk 2020 or Shadowrun.
That said, I have also been playing WoD games (and all of them, really: Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Changeling, Wraith, Hunter, Demon, KotE, blah, blah, blah, and then all the CofD variants) for something like 29 years now, and remember the rules better than I remember most of my undergraduate classes. So, it’s a path-of-least-resistance thing.
Prior to this, I was writing a Cyberpunk Red game using Evennia as my base. It’s even almost done.
Edit to add: That doesn’t mean I’m leaving! Just that it’s been nearly finished for a while now and I might one day go back and finish it up and release the code with an install.sh installer file for folks to run Cyberpunk games.That’s a lot of words to say: <begrudgingly> “Yeah, I guess you’re right.” If I were the actual headstaffer, as in quasi-benevolent dictator, I’d probably do that San Diego Zoo of Darkness thing I mentioned (stealing @labsunlimited’s term there).
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@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:
Storytelling coordinator, to me, means that I manage the theme elements of the game.
Then I’d probably recommend “theme coordinator” then, rather than a title that evokes the storyteller-as-decision-maker role.
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@Pavel said in Re: Dies Irae:
@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:
Storytelling coordinator, to me, means that I manage the theme elements of the game.
Then I’d probably recommend “theme coordinator” then, rather than a title that evokes the storyteller-as-decision-maker role.
Good idea!
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@somasatori Good. Now go back to finding vamp staff so I can actually do things.
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@Pavel said in Re: Dies Irae:
@somasatori Good. Now go back to finding vamp staff so I can actually do things.
I wish we could get those original vamp staffers back.
I also have a vampire character, but I don’t really end up playing on DI very much on account of the coding.Where’s that-- oh yeah
We opened with too much shit going on at once, is what it is. And then we had people jumping into these sort of half-baked spheres that didn’t have all their plot or lore written out, which is very stressful. I’m glad that Scylla’s cool with us doing a temporary shutter of the vamp sphere until we can get things tighter and more consistent.
