Comic Games Are Still Fun!

[Roz]

@Apos said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

Politics rules really aren’t about what is considered politics. They are about what is considered controversial politically, and what is likely to start a fight, and to avoid anything that’s going to start an argument or make someone feel unwelcome.

It is manifestly obvious that Alex Jones is a far right wing extremist and conspiracy theorist. I don’t think anyone could look at him saying Sandy Hook was funded by the Democratic Party and George Soros as a false flag operation and think that is in any way apolitical. But what I think feels off is that he’s so far outside the normal range that condemning him should not be considered controversial politically, anymore than claiming that really hateful ideologies are bad. It’s just too uncomfortable a move of the Overton Window.

Yeah, criticizing Alex Jones in and of itself is largely not going to be controversial with the vast majority of people. But I still probably wouldn’t bring him up in a setting where folks didn’t want political conversation, because a conversation can start with noncontroversial politics, but then it keeps going, and then it gains steam, and then it does eventually make its way to a fight. (Watch it lead into something like discussion about gun rights, and then you’re into much thornier weeds.)

Caveat that I can’t find the actual context of when and how he was brought up in this specific instance, lol. Just speaking generally at this point, mostly because I was confused at the idea of him not being considered political as a topic. Despite what I’ve just said, I probably wouldn’t fuss over one off-hand joke or comment.

[renaveleigh]

@Roz It was in the post that I, uh, deleted after getting enough perspective to feel uncomfortable with dumping a large quantity of barely contained spite directed at one person, in public.

(thank you, @bored!)

I’ll edit this post with that snippet when I’m at a keyboard though. Sorry for the confusion.

[GF]

@Roz “Politics” seems to imply viewpoints that people can disagree about in good faith. Alex Jones is simply an ongoing denial of objective, observable reality who has never spoken in good faith in his life. That it’s “controversial” to say so blows my mind.

[Kestrel]

@GF said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

@Roz “Politics” seems to imply viewpoints that people can disagree about in good faith. Alex Jones is simply an ongoing denial of objective, observable reality who has never spoken in good faith in his life. That it’s “controversial” to say so blows my mind.

Agreed about Alex Jones, however,

@GF said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

I didn’t want to go there because I’ve been trying very hard lately to identify and curb my prejudices, but yeah, that’s pretty much what I thought they meant. Being a minority is political, so you mustn’t discuss your life because it will make “normal” people uncomfortable, but “normal” people can chat shit about you because that’s not political.

I belong to a minority group (that’s a disproportionate target of hate-crimes in the UK & US) where it’s increasingly being castigated as some variation of:

@Apos said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

far right wing extremist and conspiracy theorist

[not by Apos, just borrowing the phrase] to say that I have a right to exist without being killed or raped for my nationality & ethnicity.

I am not right-wing, never have been, and no one who knows me would’ve ever accused me of being right-wing until under a year ago. Not because my values have changed, but because society’s goalposts have.

In an age of rampant disinformation, what’s considered “disagreeable in good faith” is a highly ephemeral standard.

I’m a highly political person, but I would rather have a no politics rule, even knowing how unfairly it’s applied to minority groups including my own, than have to repeatedly bash my head against a wall in a hobby space because someone fell hook-line-and-sinker for some TikTok disinfo and is now convinced that anyone who disagrees with them about it is a right wing conspiracy theorist engaging in bad faith.

This applies especially to historical & geopolitical topics, where education is paramount, and not guaranteed.

[Coin]

lmao. yikes.

[renaveleigh]

The context for the Alex Jones stuff:

<Xaviers-OOC> Teacher Alex Summers wishes he was a telepath, he’d fix the world.
<Xaviers-OOC> College S. Julio Richter says, “I wish I could forget that Alex Jones exists.”
<Xaviers-OOC> Resident Doug Ramsey says, “Eh, well.”
<Xaviers-OOC> College S. Julio Richter says, “Anyone for arpee?”
<Xaviers-OOC> Teacher Rogue says, “Probably best to just realize there’s a lot of people in the world you probably would like not to exist.”
<Xaviers-OOC> Resident Doug Ramsey says, “Is it with Alex Jones?”
<Xaviers-OOC> College S. Julio Richter says, “Fair enough Rogue.”
<Xaviers-OOC> Resident Talia Wagner says, “I listen to far too much Knowledge Fight, which started out as two comedians tearing down his bs and making jokes and now one of them made a deposition at one of the sandy hook trials and is regarded as the foremost expert on his grift. It’s still hilarious.”
<Xaviers-OOC> Guest Lorna Dane says, “Some people just shouldn’t be allowed to have platforms, alas”
<Xaviers-OOC> Teacher Rogue says, “Lets talk about something else.”
<Xaviers-OOC> College S. Julio Richter says, “Dongers?”
<Xaviers-OOC> Resident Doug Ramsey says, “I went to an edible book festival earlier and made myself sick. I got Bookitis :(”
<Xaviers-OOC> Guest Lorna Dane says, “I don’t think ‘people who deny horrific tragedies and encourage others to hate minorities’ is controversial, but sure!”
<Xaviers-OOC> College S. Julio Richter says, “Really?”
<Xaviers-OOC> Teacher Rogue says, “Poor Doug.”
<Xaviers-OOC> Guest Lorna Dane says, “*are bad, even.”
<Xaviers-OOC> College S. Julio Richter hugs Lorna
<Xaviers-OOC> College S. Patty Sloan says, “>.> This is why books are a nasty habit to get into :p”
<Xaviers-OOC> Teacher Rogue says, “See, Lorna, you turning it in to that, is what I’m trying to avoid.”
<Xaviers-OOC> Guest Lorna Dane just sips on her tea and writes her pose.
<Xaviers-OOC> Teacher Rogue says, “Excellent plan.”
<Xaviers-OOC> Resident Betsy Braddock grins and protecc Lorna with her alt.
<Xaviers-OOC> Resident Betsy Braddock says, “Since apparently Bishop can’t handle Philly girls.”

And then, a bit later that day, I made a petty crack in reference to it:

<X-Men-OOC> \/// SNIKT Logan says, “I’m going to this UN thing. Any other X-Men want to pretend we’re part of the world and come with me?”
<X-Men-OOC> GreenPeace Lorna Dane says, “Sorry, I just got done fight Hydra outside. :(”
<X-Men-OOC> GreenPeace Lorna Dane says, “Not to get too political by talking about fighting nazis or anything”

Making a remark about it wasn’t really the best choice, I don’t mind owning that. It’s still really strange to me, though, for the reasons outlined by @Apos/the reason I tried to get at: Alex Jones is pretty objectively a shitty, fucked up person. It’s weird that just saying that much is controversial and considered political, because one would think that if someone is now legally proven to be an entertainer/liar who makes shit up to scare people into paying him money, acknowledging it ought to be fair game.

But it’s not my monkey or circus, so, whatever!

[Prototart]

@renaveleigh

i would be willing to bet ruby has some opinions on what the wokes are doing to her the country

[Popes]

How about we just don’t let the righties play in any of these games? They shouldn’t be allowed to have fun.

[Roz]

@GF said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

@Roz “Politics” seems to imply viewpoints that people can disagree about in good faith. Alex Jones is simply an ongoing denial of objective, observable reality who has never spoken in good faith in his life. That it’s “controversial” to say so blows my mind.

Yeah, it’s not generally controversial to say that, but that wasn’t really my point or implication. I said he’s political, not because he has a worthwhile viewpoint that he argues in good faith, but because he’s engaged with the overall machine of politics, because his (bullshit) commentary is centered on political things.

I probably wouldn’t want to deal with a conversation snowballing from that topic, either.

[Apos]

@renaveleigh said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

And then, a bit later that day, I made a petty crack in reference to it:

<X-Men-OOC> \/// SNIKT Logan says, “I’m going to this UN thing. Any other X-Men want to pretend we’re part of the world and come with me?”
<X-Men-OOC> GreenPeace Lorna Dane says, “Sorry, I just got done fight Hydra outside. :(”
<X-Men-OOC> GreenPeace Lorna Dane says, “Not to get too political by talking about fighting nazis or anything”

Making a remark about it wasn’t really the best choice, I don’t mind owning that. It’s still really strange to me, though, for the reasons outlined by @Apos/the reason I tried to get at: Alex Jones is pretty objectively a shitty, fucked up person. It’s weird that just saying that much is controversial and considered political, because one would think that if someone is now legally proven to be an entertainer/liar who makes shit up to scare people into paying him money, acknowledging it ought to be fair game.

Yeah as Roz mentioned, snowballing is the good faith angle of why I think it’s still probably best practice to avoid talking about extremists and falling under the no politics rule.

The problem with hammering something that’s universally true to drive home why a partisan figure is bad, is that hitting very obvious extremists is used fairly or unfairly as an implicit criticism of anything that could be construed as politically sympathetic to it. And while it starts from a point that’s not controversial, it can very very quickly cross to a point that is pointedly offensive to people that really wouldn’t be inclined to defend an extremist to begin with. And frankly, MUs aren’t exactly great places to have calm, reasonable dialogues with strangers about that kind of thing.

[ten]

[Pavel]

@Apos said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

And frankly, MUs aren’t exactly great places to have calm, reasonable dialogues with strangers about that kind of thing.

Honestly, I think this is more the point that most staff/admin/whatever think about. At least in my experience. “I don’t want to deal with this, so we won’t be having conversations about it here thanks bye.”

[Coin]

@Pavel said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

@Apos said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

And frankly, MUs aren’t exactly great places to have calm, reasonable dialogues with strangers about that kind of thing.

Honestly, I think this is more the point that most staff/admin/whatever think about. At least in my experience. “I don’t want to deal with this, so we won’t be having conversations about it here thanks bye.”

like i said. “is it worth the headache?”

[Pavel]

@Coin said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

@Pavel said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

@Apos said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

And frankly, MUs aren’t exactly great places to have calm, reasonable dialogues with strangers about that kind of thing.

Honestly, I think this is more the point that most staff/admin/whatever think about. At least in my experience. “I don’t want to deal with this, so we won’t be having conversations about it here thanks bye.”

like i said. “is it worth the headache?”

Of course then you do get cases where one has to decide how to balance the conversational needs of insert minority group or situation here vs your headache, etc.

[Coin]

@Pavel said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

@Coin said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

@Pavel said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

@Apos said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

And frankly, MUs aren’t exactly great places to have calm, reasonable dialogues with strangers about that kind of thing.

Honestly, I think this is more the point that most staff/admin/whatever think about. At least in my experience. “I don’t want to deal with this, so we won’t be having conversations about it here thanks bye.”

like i said. “is it worth the headache?”

Of course then you do get cases where one has to decide how to balance the conversational needs of insert minority group or situation here vs your headache, etc.

yeah. that’s where the ‘worth’ part of the statement comes into play.

[Pyrephox]

Just a gentle reminder to everyone that while the discussion about a fight over political discussions on another game is fine, we’d rather not see it become a way for people to have a political discussion by proxy here. People have been good about this so far, it’s not a ding on anyone, but just keep it in mind since things tend to drift the longer a discussion goes on.

On the other hand, fight over Lex Luthor’s presidential policies all you want.

[Prototart]

tbqh only supporters of the science of Marxism-Leninism should be allowed on MU*s

[renaveleigh]

I mean, listen, we can debate the merits of where precisely the lines should be drawn in specific real or hypothetical situations like this one all day. That’s fine and fair.

But divorced from all of that, my gut feeling is that Rogue is some kind of weirdo chud or consciously covering for the feelings of one, so while I’m happy to not get wildly political in public, I am also never not going to find it funny that her knee-jerk reaction was to clutch her pearls over the very controversial statement that Alex Jones Is Bad, Actually.

I’ll also note that there are players who have cart blanche to whine about how sensitive people are nowadays, and how there are too many genders, and pronouns are hard - all of which feel like more inherently political dog whistles and/or statements than acknowledging that a lying scam artist is a lying scam artist - so while I do appreciate the value of not talking about certain subjects because they can cause friction, it’d be nice if that standard was applied more evenly.

[Roz]

@renaveleigh said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:

But divorced from all of that, my gut feeling is that Rogue is some kind of weirdo chud or consciously covering for the feelings of one, so while I’m happy to not get wildly political in public, I am also never not going to find it funny that her knee-jerk reaction was to clutch her pearls over the very controversial statement that Alex Jones Is Bad, Actually.

From an outside perspective entirely divorced from any behavioral patterns here, this specific conversation pasted doesn’t look like someone clutching their pearls, it looks like someone asking for a subject change and getting guff about it. Like, in this specific instance, she looks like the reasonable one, not the people snarking about it.

All that said, my jumping into this conversation was literally only about finding it strange that people would not consider this a political topic, but I’ve never met a minor disagreement I couldn’t talk about at length. (This is probably not my best trait.) But I also don’t have the other logs anymore.

To be clear, I do remember the drama around this person from back in the MSB days of the preceding game this one came from? And I absolutely believe they’re not someone I’d want to play with or be on a game they’d staff on. Just to make that part clear!

I’ll also note that there are players who have cart blanche to whine about how sensitive people are nowadays, and how there are too many genders, and pronouns are hard - all of which feel like more inherently political dog whistles and/or statements than acknowledging that a lying scam artist is a lying scam artist - so while I do appreciate the value of not talking about certain subjects because they can cause friction, it’d be nice if that standard was applied more evenly.

That is absolutely really shitty. That sort of thing definitely wouldn’t fly in numerous other places with similar “let’s avoid political conversation” policies. I’m confident that the mods here would shut it down, for instance, and I’d have no interest in entertaining it on the one game I’m staffing on (nor would any of the other staffers).

[renaveleigh]

@Roz She isn’t staff, at least, so that’s something.