@64bitjedi I think you’ve been pretty mild-mannered given the coal-raking. It’s hard to be in your spot, and I can appreciate that, and I can respect that you came here to face the music in a townsquare format, not because I think that’s such a highly respectable thing to do: I think it’s the bare minimum, but you seem to be the only Staffer from your game to do that.

I can also appreciate that you have a tangible investment of real labor hours in this game, an emotional connection to it, and a vested interest in the community. Most of the people on this board don’t, and so it’s effortless and quarrelless to dismiss the entire thing as unsalvageably bad without having to contemplate all the good times you’ve likely had there.

I have no doubt that Staffers who clearly have known the whole time that they were acting in bad faith went to extraordinary lengths to keep their bad behavior and problematic incidents from you; as a coder, giving you as few reasons to get involved in anything but coding is in Cujo’s best interest.

When I hear terms like “investigation” in reference to something like this, an online game, I don’t know, that just makes me laugh. You’ve read this thread, and as kept-in-the-coder-dark as you might have been, you know the vibe of your own game. You know the character of the people that you co-staff with. Either you believe the claims of egregious, absofuckinglutely untenable harassment and abuse of power, or you don’t.

So let’s assume that you do believe them, because I’ve never seen this many claims about someone who was innocent, like ever, ever, ever, so let’s assume that you do: now what?

Do you have the authority to get rid of Hadrix? To disempower him from a Staff bit? To ban him from the game? If you had that authority, would you use it? I’m willing to bet that if Cujo is headwiz, you can’t get rid of him.

This is where we’re stuck. From the longevity and pattern of behavior described on this thread, I don’t see much chance for a rehabilitation of Cujo or Hadrix’s behavior. Any changes will be short-lived, and why shouldn’t they be? They’ll have gotten away with it. They say a few contrite words, hush up on Public for a couple of days, or weeks, and it all blows over.

Your players, the people here, folks are telling you that doesn’t cut the mustard.

Continuing to support Hadrix or Cujo in any way, and I believe that includes continuing to provide support for a game in which they have not been punished or disempowered, as good as your intentions are and as good as you say your intentions are, that makes you an enabler. And that’s what I think some other folks are trying to tell you, and frankly, I agree.

fuck cancer

I don’t think the issue of sexual harassment in MU* treads any new ground, and I think you’re absolutely right that cool-headed third party brain needs to chill out when that’s the issue on the docket.

Demanding receipts is problematic for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that it’s hard for me to think of a woman, any woman that I know, who hasn’t been in a conversation they were fine with that suddenly took a turn. YOU KNOW. A TURN. And I’m sure this happens to men, to non-binary individuals, and to folks of all identities, but I can only speak from my perspective.

If I’m in that situation (I have been), then now in order to prove to Random Cool-Headed Third Party that I’ve been harassed, or that this person is a danger, I have to show the four pages of kinda steamy texts that were fine with me before the Alleged Creepazoid got weird as hell.

Yay, that’s so fun for me, people will definitely NOT call me a slut or act like I deserved it, or shame me in any way. This never happens. Thanks so much, RC-HTP! You really helped. Wew. Not it.

I’m staring at the Discord server for a game where something Sort Of Gross happened. It happened once, and then there was a weird reference weeks later in an OOC conversation that made me think of it again, and I think to myself, “I should really mention this. That was weird. Weird as fuck.”

I know I’ll get asked for logs. I know I’ll get grilled over the conversation before and after, which I just don’t really remember that well. I’m sure my machine logged it, it logs everything, but do I really want to dig it up, and hand it over, so some strangers I don’t know can pick apart everything that I might have done? This person is more well-established in the game than I am, more interconnected into the community.

Knowing all of that, the whole situation screams Why Bother, and I feel kind of disappointed knowing that this dude will probably make someone else feel kind of weird. Explosively harassed or violated? No, nothing like that. But explosively harassed or violated isn’t what it takes to turn someone off from a game. Sometimes all it takes is someone making you feel kind of weird, and people who are not tightly ingrained in the community and who might not have someone to turn to and say word about it, they might just leave instead of hanging around and dealing with it.

one of my little idiots. my swaggletooth underbite champion. I’d murder for her, I wouldn’t even hesitate.

not to shitpost but can we get that talking fedora back in here, I want to hear the latest hot take on how this is reasonable.

@helvetica said in JKER Temporarily Banned Discussion Thread:

Listen, Darkest Timeline @Pax

I will only be responding to Darkest Timeline Pax henceforth tyvm.

being more interested in a game than a game is in you. that’s all. that’s the peeve.

If I set, and you don’t say shit, greet, or even notice my character in your first pose, take off your coat because we’re fighting.

@GF I don’t have any advice. This is above my paygrade. I’m not a therapist or even an expert at human-ing. But when I have been in similar situations as the one you’re describing, I find myself pulling away, because when I did not do that, when I allowed myself to become a support for that person who was showing me those red flags, they become very clingy and expectant of my time and my emotional labor, and that was not a sustainable balance for me. I wish you the best, it’s a tough situation.

IDK a lot about the wet mop in question, but what bums me out is how challenging it is to balance the “assume positive intentions” mindset that makes RPing with folks over the internet a lot smoother against the absolutely legitimate concern-edging-paranoia that the person you’re talking to is actually a corrosive manipulator, gaslighter, and abuser who is just waiting for their moment.

Sometimes that shit just takes a lot of spoons, man.

I wrote a whole-ass post calling this guy out on his weird red flags and then thought to myself, “Pax, you’re going too hard, chill,” so I deleted it and just commented on the 10 year old/shotguns thing, and walked away and came back to this.

vindication intensifies

But while I’m here.

@Warma-Sheen said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:

I don’t think most of that is anywhere near accurate. He was clearly responding directly to someone that argued a point he made with what he thought was evidence of that point. It was very direct.

If your earnest point is that this kind of behavior is not in bad faith, it makes me suspect you of bad faith shit.

That is basically the format of the forum. That’s what we all do here. One person makes a point. Someone else argues against it. The first person backs up the point they made.

If the point of this forum is to open yourself up to whisper campaigns and behind-the-curtain bullying with the presumption that admin will do nothing to take action against people doing that sort of thing, I’m gonna delete my account right fuckin’ now.

If what makes it ‘creepy’ is that he decided to share his evidence privately through DM rather than try to blast IR publicly, then you might want to consider disabling DMs or change the policies to ban people from DMing others without prior permission.

Once again, a recommendation is being flown out that a feature should be disabled, that rules should be changed, that the Overton Window of Online Harassment and How to Deal With It should shift because unless they’ve explicitly listed out all the ways that you shouldn’t harass someone, it’s somehow the admin’s fault. Wild. The deja vu is giving me whiplash.

We don’t need to delete features because a handful of bad actors use them in bad faith. It’s perfectly acceptable to say “no, that’s not how you should be using DMs, that is unacceptable behavior” without ripping out the drywall. Absolutely wild.

It sounds like half the reason this place thrives is that it’s so miserable to grind towards something playable and enjoyable (in the face of the Favorites who have a much easier time of it and I’m sure rub it in people’s faces) and once you get a scrap of it, Sunk Cost Fallacy all the way.

I mean you almost have to be impressed.

@Adora

“I’m sorry, that’s not what I meant”
“I know but let me explain why that’s what you meant anyway–”

This is not productive discourse. The horse is dead. Leave it alone.

This is what abusers do. They humiliate you by showing everyone that you were OK with what was happening up until a point.

This log wasn’t posted to convince us of anything. It wasn’t posted to make Macha look better. It was posted to humiliate someone she felt humiliated by, because she was rejected and reported.

If y’all wanna leave it up, that’s above my paygrade. I’m here to sit in the peanut gallery, I do not want your job and I’m grateful that you do it. Howeeeeeeeever:

There’s nothing wrong with walking back a previous decision and saying “sorry guys, we were wrong, turns out that this was in fact a genuine effort to provide clarity and context”. No one’s gonna burn you at the stake for that. That’s the kind of transparency and accountability I think everyone wants, but not at the cost of letting the paraphernalia of abuse hang out in the lobby.

I get how tempting it is to try to create standards that will encompass every situation. That speaks to the tech product egghead in me. But part of moderation is going with your gut, there’s always a human element.

Tough situation, I trust you guys to make the right call. All this sucks. Just sucks. I feel so bad for whoever NAMEREMOVED is. I just feel like protecting them is more important than protecting an anonymous rando who won’t answer any questions.

@mietze fuck that fuck I think you’re great

(are we allowed to say “fuck 'em” on this board? I’m sorry, I’m new, I don’t know the rules. I assume so or I owe like $8…7, yeah, $87 to the jar.)

@Sammich said in Asking for RP:

It’s even ‘better’ when you do try figuring out a reason only to have every single one of your suggestions shot down because it wouldn’t be ‘in character’ for them.

A lot of RP has died before it could live because it was sacrificed on the pyre of “bUt ThEy wOuLd NeVeR dO tHaT”. Cool, then I guess the rest of us are RPing and you’re scratching your ass, cheers chief.

Some of the comments in this thread are wearing a fedora and screaming at me that it’s a goddamn trilby.

Who wrote this website?

Question: “Why should I make a character?”
Answer: "Because the sooner you make a character the quicker the game gets even healthier. And the faster you start earning Experience Points to build your character’s skills up and earn more toward making the character YOU want.

Make a character so our game is better & so you can grind making a character.

edit to link to said website: http://www.swaoa-mush.com

@Pavel said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:

@shit-piss-love said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:

MU*s and forums and such would be excluded from GDPR under article 2c; “purely personal activity” which is further clarified in Recital 18 hope that helps.

That’s highly debatable.

It is, and I’m gonna, because respectfully, that is incorrect. A MU* fails to meet the exemption threshold of “purely personal or household activity”. Let’s look at it.

1This Regulation does not apply to the processing of personal data by a natural person in the course of a purely personal or household activity and thus with no connection to a professional or commercial activity. 2Personal or household activities could include correspondence and the holding of addresses, or social networking and online activity undertaken within the context of such activities. 3However, this Regulation applies to controllers or processors which provide the means for processing personal data for such personal or household activities.

The 2003 definition of “purely personal or household activity” is referenced by the GDPR and codified by case law from Lindquist, and you can read more about it here.

TLDR, the exemption would apply if the site, app, or service was exclusively used in the commission of family or private (meaning you, alone) activity, but an MU* falls short of that because you don’t have a familial or even personal relationship with the data subjects. Please note that in the Lindquist case, being a member of the same church did not constitute this personal relationship, so it’s doubtful that your Discord buddy AxeMurderer#0772 that you invited to your game, or the eight people who came with them but “they’re cool, dude!” will surpass the threshold.

It’s also incorrect that GDPR can’t apply to you if you live outside the EU. GDPR doesn’t protect you, but it still applies to you unless you simply bar EU member residents from participating in your service.

It’s also worth pointing out that the GDPR doesn’t stipulate you be any kind of EU member citizen, or even a resident. If I take my laptop to Spain and login from a cafe, guess what? Oh that’s right baby. I’m protected by GDPR.

Could you get away with giving the finger and seeing if you get dragged to court anyway? Sure, but at the point that you get that notarized letter from the IOC, your ass in the fire and we’re in a weird place, because it would be absolutely crazypants to go after an MU*, but just because it would be weird as hell doesn’t mean that it cannot actually be done under the auspice of current law. It sure can. And stranger things have happened.

My instinct to be direct conflicts with my preference not to hurt anyone’s feelings.

This is all for fun pretendy times but the things folks say to one another on the internet, even over the silly medium of a silly game, can follow people out into the real world, and I don’t mind giving someone a shot, or simply keeping my mouth shut, to err on the side of not giving someone a reason to beat themselves up over what is most likely extremely inconsequential. This hobby attracts sensitive, neurodivergent, anxious, depressed people, and truly I would much rather give someone the time of day than contribute to any feelings of worthlessness on the part of anyone – even a nerd acting out on a video game.

Wanting or not wanting to play a game with someone is inconsequential, no matter how well thought-out the dissertation of reasons is. It doesn’t matter.

Will a direct conversation make this person a better RPer for me, for others? Will it clear up an outstanding issue? Are they actually crossing boundaries and making me uncomfortable? Are they harmless, just a little awkward, could probably use a break?

I don’t have a uniform answer to these survey questions because I don’t think there’s a uniform way they present themselves.

But generally, as in the real world, I find that the right answer is usually to shut up and be nice.