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    What has changed?

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Game Gab
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    • ArkandelA
      Arkandel
      last edited by

      Hey folks,

      I haven’t played on a MUSH for probably 4-5 years now, so for all intents and purposes I suppose I’m a ‘former’ card-carrying member of the hobby itself. In that regard, I was wondering if you wanted to share some insights about how the hobby has changed in the last few years.

      For example this is what I perceive, as an outsider:

      • Games are played more often over the web in order to take advantage of new technologies (asynchronous scenes, autologging/posting, rich text, etc).
      • The trend of gaming settings has shifted from urban fantasy (mainly World of Darkness variants) over to fantasy, superheroes and custom horror.
      • The debate of consent versus non-consent seems to have been largely won by consent based games (in some cases with extensive checklists of triggering themes, etc).
      • The hobby seems to have drawn/tapped into pools of new players over time, and isn’t only played by the same dinosaurs from yesteryear.

      Do these seem about right to you? How far off the mark am I?

      Mind you, I’m obviously talking in general terms and not specifics. For example someone is probably running a non-consensual nWoD game playable only over telnet somewhere.

      RozR 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 5
      • RozR
        Roz @Arkandel
        last edited by

        @Arkandel said in What has changed?:

        Hey folks,

        I haven’t played on a MUSH for probably 4-5 years now, so for all intents and purposes I suppose I’m a ‘former’ card-carrying member of the hobby itself. In that regard, I was wondering if you wanted to share some insights about how the hobby has changed in the last few years.

        For example this is what I perceive, as an outsider:

        • Games are played more often over the web in order to take advantage of new technologies (asynchronous scenes, autologging/posting, rich text, etc).

        Ares games can all still be readily played via the client, so people can kind of engage on whichever side of the platform they want? I’ve played a few Ares games and it does allow for a much greater prevalence of async scenes if that’s what a specific game culture wants, that much is true. I still use clients for Ares games, though.

        I’m not sure if Arx’s autologging system they have for events is core Evennia or custom Arx code. The event logs are just logs of in-game stuff, so not being played over the web. Flashbacks are definitely custom Arx code, and used for a bit more async, but my experience is that on-grid scenes still greatly outweigh flashback use.

        I know some of the other codebases have softcode autologgers, even ones that can spit directly into Mediawiki, but I think those are still just logging activity in the game?

        • The trend of gaming settings has shifted from urban fantasy (mainly World of Darkness variants) over to fantasy, superheroes and custom horror.

        I feel like this point in particular may be showing a bit of bias – there may be fewer WoD games around than there were in the past, but I don’t know that I see it a shift of trends. For a lot of MUers, the notable numbers of WoD games in the past wasn’t a trend at all. I don’t really think there are MORE superhero and fantasy games nowadays than there used to, you might just be noticing them more. I’ve kind of joked in the past that it feels like there are two kinds of MU*ers: people who cut their teeth on WoD, and then everyone else. (Superhero games have been, to my view, very popular for pretty much ages.)

        • The debate of consent versus non-consent seems to have been largely won by consent based games (in some cases with extensive checklists of triggering themes, etc).

        I can’t really comment on this shift, tbh. I have pretty much always played games with a large amount of consent. I think it matters what level of consent vs nonconsent we’re talking about? Like, just more clarity/detail would be helpful here, because I think these words can mean a variety of different things, and most games are somewhere on a scale rather than one or the other.

        • The hobby seems to have drawn/tapped into pools of new players over time, and isn’t only played by the same dinosaurs from yesteryear.

        That I do think is true, although I don’t know if it’s a shift. I think it’s always been true?

        she/her | playlist

        ArkandelA 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 7
        • ArkandelA
          Arkandel @Roz
          last edited by

          @Roz said in What has changed?:

          I can’t really comment on this shift, tbh. I have pretty much always played games with a large amount of consent. I think it matters what level of consent vs nonconsent we’re talking about? Like, just more clarity/detail would be helpful here, because I think these words can mean a variety of different things, and most games are somewhere on a scale rather than one or the other.

          I left it purposefully vague but since you asked, this is what I was referring to.

          • Sexual themes. Back in the day “I’m just playing a sexual predator but I’m a NICE GUY” seems to have been a much more openly available choice.
          • Games being more explicit about what and they’re looking in terms of PvP, ST runners being more frequently upfront about their plots’ themes, etc. Just a matter of being consciously considerate about it.
          • There seem to be inroads and more inclusiveness in terms of race, sexual orientation or gender identity. Not allowing slurs even IC, for example.
          RozR 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
          • PolkP
            Polk
            last edited by

            One thing that is changing about the world is that most people on the Internet are not using a traditional desktop computer. They are using phones and tablets.

            MUSHes are adapting to this with web clients and web interfaces.

            At Liberation I worked very hard to make sure that the website was mobile-friendly in its core design, and that the player wiki could be as well, including the character page template I supplied.

            A web client is planned eventually.

            RhostMUSH got full websockets support in the engine, as have other old school MUSHes.

            Adapt or die. We are choosing to adapt.

            One key pool of new players we need to draw from are the Discord RPers who are re-inventing IRC and Forum RP.

            Third EyeT ArkandelA 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 3
            • RozR
              Roz @Arkandel
              last edited by

              @Arkandel said in What has changed?:

              @Roz said in What has changed?:

              I can’t really comment on this shift, tbh. I have pretty much always played games with a large amount of consent. I think it matters what level of consent vs nonconsent we’re talking about? Like, just more clarity/detail would be helpful here, because I think these words can mean a variety of different things, and most games are somewhere on a scale rather than one or the other.

              I left it purposefully vague but since you asked, this is what I was referring to.

              • Sexual themes. Back in the day “I’m just playing a sexual predator but I’m a NICE GUY” seems to have been a much more openly available choice.
              • Games being more explicit about what and they’re looking in terms of PvP, ST runners being more frequently upfront about their plots’ themes, etc. Just a matter of being consciously considerate about it.
              • There seem to be inroads and more inclusiveness in terms of race, sexual orientation or gender identity. Not allowing slurs even IC, for example.

              Ah, yeah, none of those are things I would categorize into the “consent vs nonconsent” bucket when it comes to MUs, although in thinking about it, I can see how it could be looked at as a different category of the discussion.

              I do agree that, over all, there has been a shift over the years along these lines.

              she/her | playlist

              SpaceKhomeiniS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
              • Third EyeT
                Third Eye @Polk
                last edited by Third Eye

                @Polk said in What has changed?:

                One thing that is changing about the world is that most people on the Internet are not using a traditional desktop computer. They are using phones and tablets.

                For this reason, one of the things I’m surprised hasn’t changed is the relative usability of mobile clients. I can play an Ares game on my phone without much trouble but it’s not a mobile client, really, it’s just a webpage I can refresh in a mobile browser, so that feels a little different than something focused on phone or tablet players. The available clients themselves like Blowtorch and Mukluk have the same issues they did when I first started using them, it feels like.

                I want something else to get me through this
                Semi-charmed kinda life, baby, baby
                I want something else, I'm not listening when you say good-bye

                She/Her or They/Them

                PolkP FaradayF SpaceKhomeiniS 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                • PolkP
                  Polk @Third Eye
                  last edited by

                  @Third-Eye It’s weird. The mobile app-based clients are actually just dying off, rather than exploiting the growing user base.

                  I guess the big MUDs all getting their own dedicated web clients just killed the market.

                  MisterBoringM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                  • MisterBoringM
                    MisterBoring @Polk
                    last edited by

                    @Polk said in What has changed?:

                    I guess the big MUDs all getting their own dedicated web clients just killed the market.

                    I agree with this, and also want to point out that a lot of newer phones are blocking telnet in ways that even app developers can’t get around, so that’s probably caused some issues with continuing development of apps for mobile platforms as well.

                    Proud Member of the Pro-Mummy Alliance

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                    • ArkandelA
                      Arkandel @Polk
                      last edited by

                      @Polk You know what hasn’t changed and I’d think it would have by now?

                      There’s still no real alternative to ‘the Mudconnector’ of olde. Just an up-to-date web site that lists all active games (and periodically checks automagically to see if any are down, their ‘who’ lists, etc), and has some kind of categorized statistics on demand.

                      For example it’d be nice if we could run a query “modern fantasy games, order by number of average online players” and see what comes out.

                      PolkP FaradayF farfallaF 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • PolkP
                        Polk @Arkandel
                        last edited by

                        @Arkandel It’d be nice if Grapevine would show more stats like the old mudstats did, yeah.

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • FaradayF
                          Faraday @Third Eye
                          last edited by

                          @Third-Eye said in What has changed?:

                          I can play an Ares game on my phone without much trouble but it’s not a mobile client, really, it’s just a webpage I can refresh in a mobile browser, so that feels a little different than something focused on phone or tablet players.

                          Yeah I have these grand visions for an Ares mobile client, but it’s tough to balance the nifty widgets (that would make it better than the mobile telnet clients that have been around forever) with game-specific variations. Also I’m not a mobile developer, so… it’s all a ginormous learning curve. Someday maybe.

                          Third EyeT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                          • FaradayF
                            Faraday @Arkandel
                            last edited by

                            @Arkandel said in What has changed?:

                            There’s still no real alternative to ‘the Mudconnector’ of olde. Just an up-to-date web site that lists all active games (and periodically checks automagically to see if any are down, their ‘who’ lists, etc), and has some kind of categorized statistics on demand.

                            AresCentral doesn’t have live queries like what you describe, but it does auto track game “up” status and show average connection data.

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                            • Third EyeT
                              Third Eye @Faraday
                              last edited by

                              @Faraday
                              It’s definitely not a complaint, just an observation since sometimes the browser functionality when used on a phone gets talked about as if it were a mobile client. As it is Ares games are the only ones I’ve ever managed to RP on my phone in a way I remotely enjoy, so I’ll take it happily. Though I admire the fortitude of those who do most of their RP everywhere on their phone. I’m always surprised when someone says they do, but there seem to be a decent number of users like that out there.

                              I want something else to get me through this
                              Semi-charmed kinda life, baby, baby
                              I want something else, I'm not listening when you say good-bye

                              She/Her or They/Them

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • PrototartP
                                Prototart
                                last edited by

                                there definitely aren’t more superhero places than there were forever ago, when i first started playing there were like a dozen-plus and 4-5 with major player populations, now it seems like there are usually like 2 at a given time with more than maybe 20 unique logins and tbh i’d say the quality has dropped p dramatically

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                • SpaceKhomeiniS
                                  SpaceKhomeini @Roz
                                  last edited by

                                  This post is deleted!
                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • SpaceKhomeiniS
                                    SpaceKhomeini @Third Eye
                                    last edited by

                                    @Third-Eye

                                    Le sigh, we’re still chained to the built-in limitations of Telnet (which as someone mentioned above, is helpfully being killed by security-minded folks to begin with). That and the fact that mobile devices OS’s just don’t have the same persistent connection ability that desktop ones do.

                                    The only non-MU* application I ever seem to have for a Telnet client is troubleshooting server status/connectivity.

                                    FaradayF 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • FaradayF
                                      Faraday @SpaceKhomeini
                                      last edited by Faraday

                                      @SpaceKhomeini It’s not really “telnet” that’s the limitation - most MUSHes communicate on a custom port, not standard telnet. Unless you’re trying to connect over a raw telnet terminal (whyyy??) instead of a regular MU client, you aren’t really going to be affected by the security changes.

                                      The real issue with playing on mobile is the other thing you mentioned - that mobile OSes just aren’t designed for persistent connections. As soon as the phone goes to sleep, your connection drops. That’s never going to change, and even if we upgraded MUSH connections to the more secure SSH, it wouldn’t help. The “telnetesque” command-line interface will always have these limitations.

                                      What will solve this is a mobile client that operates on push/pull rather than a persistent connection. That’s going to require server-side code changes to support, on top of someone making an actual mobile client that works that way.

                                      SpaceKhomeiniS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                      • SpaceKhomeiniS
                                        SpaceKhomeini @Faraday
                                        last edited by

                                        @Faraday Yeah I’ve had similar issues with using SSH apps in a pinch.
                                        Shamefully I’ve used raw telnet before for, well, reasons. I’m not proud.

                                        I’m gonna detour for a sec to give a tremendous shout-out to you for all that you’ve done making Ares a robust platform that I can actually play on a tablet OS (my preferred device for these things). The web portal has made this something of a joy again.

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                        • farfallaF
                                          farfalla @Arkandel
                                          last edited by

                                          @Arkandel It’s not exactly the same, doesn’t show average connections for example, but there’s Mustard.

                                          as previously stated, good day.

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                          • T
                                            Testament
                                            last edited by

                                            I honestly don’t know if there’s been a shift towards the fantasy genre, honestly. At least , not to the point where it’s become more visible. Yes, there is Arx, which is by all accounts the largest fantasy mush out there(I say mush, not MUDs, as there are some massively huge fantasy MUDs out there), and a handful of smaller 10-20 person playerbase fantasy mushes that tend to go under the radar most of the time. Personally, I would like to see more original theme fantasy out there.

                                            I do think the number of superogames has stayed pretty consistent over the years, as I could name a good number of them ten years ago, the number of games seems to of stayed relatively the same, only the name and synopsis appears to of changed.

                                            I don't know what I'm doing. Poke at Seven Nations sevennations.aresmush.com port 2021

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