@Faraday I think I get what you’re saying and I agree with that perspective. Rolls should not be a crutch to make up for not being able to play a concept properly. They can help drive RP and perhaps point you in directions you hadn’t considered, but they definitely can’t make fundamentally poor roleplay enjoyable.

And yes, someone shouldn’t be able to play a character poorly but then fall back on “But my +roll says yes” as if that overrides everything else. There’s definitely some murky water where playing poorly because someone doesn’t care (and isn’t even trying) crosses over with someone who is genuinely doing their best to play the concept well but might need some mechanical support.

I think the ideal is when dice mechanics enhance good-faith roleplay efforts rather than replacing them. A player genuinely trying to portray a brilliant tactician might benefit from dice mechanics that help bridge the gap, while someone just going through the motions and expecting the dice to do all the heavy lifting is missing the point of collaborative storytelling.

@Faraday Well, I don’t think I said that dice rolls should be the narrative. I don’t think I ever even implied it. I said “The mechanics should serve the narrative, not strangle it.”

I think it’s similar to saying, “You want to play a strong character? Show proof you’re that strong in real life.” These games are fantasy, not reality. We’re playing characters that are often better than ourselves in many ways.

While I don’t think it’s anyone’s “job” to do anything except have fun, I don’t see an issue with collaborating on plot development when it creates enjoyable stories. If someone wants their character to break into my character’s vault, I’m happy to brainstorm ideas with them if the story sounds fun. I agree the concept should come before the rolls - dice should serve the story, not create it from nothing.

I also don’t disagree about expecting a certain level of competency and knowledge of the theme and setting. If someone is consistently playing against theme, tone, and setting, there are definitely larger issues than whether they succeed at Intelligence or Charisma rolls.

That said, dice mechanics can enhance and drive RP in various ways. Maybe two players aren’t interested in RPing out the entire heist but want to explore the aftermath - they could resolve the execution with a roll or two to determine how smoothly things went. Or they might choose to RP it without any rolls at all. The important thing is having fun and telling good stories together.

Obviously, these are just my thoughts and opinions. There’s no one-size-fits-all answer to questions like these. Personally, I just like using dice mechanics to help bridge the gap between what we’re capable of and what our characters are capable of - not to replace storytelling, but to enhance it.

@Gashlycrumb said in Lords and Ladies Game Design:

I think handling intrigue with dice-mechanics is kind of a problem. Maybe not a big one, depending on your player base. But you know how you always get that one person who keeps going, “My character has a 20 charisma, love me!” while behaving in very uncharismatic ways. There’s also somebody out there who will go, “Make my dumbass scheme work as if I’m the genius my sheet says I am!” It can be a heck of a lot of work to translate dice-throws of this nature into narrative.

This is exactly why I prefer dice mechanics for intrigue when possible. Without them, you risk telling players “Sorry, you can’t play a charismatic character because you’re not charismatic in real life” or “Your character can’t pull off that brilliant scheme because you’re not smart enough to devise it.” Even worse is hitting that wall of “That would never work on my character” with nothing backing it up except “Because I say so.”

I’m all about cooperative storytelling, and ultimately “because I say so” is valid in many contexts. But dice add that perfect element of uncertainty that keeps things interesting and levels the playing field. And when a certain amount of hand waving needs to enter the equation to make things happen—if it creates an overall better story—then I’m absolutely all for it. The mechanics should serve the narrative, not strangle it. When these systems are in place, you definitely need zero tolerance for BS and shenanigans. That said, anyone trying to game these systems at the expense of other players’ fun probably isn’t someone you want on your game anyway. The goal is always a compelling story where everyone feels their character can meaningfully participate, regardless of the player’s real-world skills.

Also, with games like this, it’s easy to forget that the shows we’re basing them on have a writers’ room full of people who spend weeks or months crafting these stories, plots, and dialogue. When we RP them, we’re coming up with stuff off the cuff. I think a certain amount of leeway should be expected and happily given. It’s a lot to expect the average gamer to come up with a professional writers’ room worth of quality material on the fly in the few minutes they have to craft a pose. Dice mechanics can bridge that gap between our improvised efforts and the polished narratives we’re trying to emulate.

For me, I think a L&L game should have some/most of the following:

1. Setting: To me it should be in a historical or fantasy versions of aristocratic societies inspired by European nobility structures from medieval to Victorian eras.

2. Focus on social dynamics: I think the game should emphasize social interaction, political maneuvering, romantic entanglements, and status competition.

3. Hierarchical character structure: Players typically take on roles within a clearly defined social hierarchy, from monarchs and high nobility down to lesser gentry.

4. Intrigue mechanics: Mechanics for reputation, scandal, alliances, marriages, and social influence rather than traditional combat stats.

5. Events and gatherings: Social events like balls, garden parties, hunts, and court sessions serve as central settings for roleplaying interactions.

6. Character development: Character growth typically revolves around gaining titles, wealth, alliances, and social standing rather than combat abilities.

Back to games we want but won’t see…

Street Fighter / Mortal Kombat: I think both actually have themes you could build a MU around. Street Fighter is almost superheroics meets espionage while Mortal Kombat could be modern fantasy.

TMNT: One of my favorite things from my youth. I loved playing the old RPG and would love to play on a MU set in the TMNT universe.

Transformers: I know there are one or two out there but I find their themes confusing. I’d like a simple G1 Transformers game set on Earth and maybe Cybertron. Perhaps with a plot working up to the original 1986 movie(Unicron).

I didn’t want to derail the other thread, but I thought there was a lot of good discussion going on regarding the Lords and Ladies games so I thought I’d create a thread just for that.

The points I found most interesting included:

1. Running a more personal game
2. Having a system in place for political plots and intrigue
3. Ensuring there are interesting consequences for “losing” in intrigues.
4. Creating some sort of a roster or temporary character pool for things like intrigue and other plots.

What might also work is finding out what political plots players want to explore with their characters, then collaborating with them to create some NPC/roster characters specifically for those storylines. You could then advertise for temporary players to take over these characters for the duration of the plot. This way, Player A gets their political intrigue storyline, while Player B gets to drive a character like they stole it—engaging in roleplay they might not otherwise try with a character they were more personally invested in.

@Ominous When I ponder my Game of Thrones game, I think about this exact challenge. To make politics work, I think it boils down to needing one of two things:

1: Players who are willing to have characters that “lose” in these political games and who’ll accept consequences. It should still lead to engaging and imaginative RP but, in my experience, most people just want to “win” and don’t like being on the other side.

2: Having staff or players willing to temp NPCs to act in those losing spots or to suffer the consequences of actions.

You’d also need staff keeping an eye out for players who might take advantage of a game that allows political maneuvering. There’d need to be a zero tolerance policy for using politics to pressure people into RP they don’t want to participate in.

I don’t think these are reasons not to incorporate politics into the game—they’re just hurdles that would need to be overcome. I actually think it could be very rewarding if done right.

@Gashlycrumb If I ever did it, it’d probably follow along the same route. More personal, localized stories.

@Gashlycrumb said in Games we want, but will almost certainly never have:

@Artemis … And L&L is probably among the easiest themes to run.

See, the idea of running a Lords & Ladies game is very intimidating. I think I could open a superhero or modern horror game tomorrow and be fairly confident in running plots, helping players, and all that. But when I think about opening an L&L game? I get all anxious.

And it’s too bad because I’d love to see a Game of Thrones game. The two people I RP with most would also love it. I just find it all very intimidating - probably mostly because I’d be doing all the staffing work by myself, and that’s a lot to handle.

I kind of like “mash up” games where you combine two not always similar themes. One of the coolest games I ever played on was X-Thulhu (X-Men mashed with Cthulhu mythos). In that same vein, I think I’d love to see a Gotham/TMNT game. No other DC heroes and focus things on Gotham rather than NYC. Batman and the Turtles dealing with Gotham’s rogues gallery while maybe facing off against Shredder and the Foot Clan would be amazing. The contrast between the Turtles’ more lighthearted approach and Batman’s brooding intensity could create some really interesting roleplay dynamics.

The Turtles might lean into their darker iterations too, which would fit perfectly with Gotham’s atmosphere. Those grittier TMNT comics or the 2003 animated series vibes would mesh so well with the Bat-universe. And the opportunity for original characters would be really good here - maybe mutants created by a Gotham-based experiment, or new vigilantes inspired by either Batman or the Turtles. It’s probably something that’s just cool in my head, but still, if this game showed up I’d app at it immediately.

@Jennkryst said in WoD/CofD/Supernatural Games, One Splat or Many?:

Double post, but obviously solution is to yeet different sphere rules, and unify them all into a singular system with 1:1 powers, so Dresden Files +strength is +strength, no matter if wuff or vamp.

Alternatively, Exalted lulz.

That’s my goal with Dark City. While I do have Universal Gifts and Bloodline specific gifts. My goal is individual themes and tones for powers while they all function using the same mechanics.

I prefer either a single splat (with mortals included as well) or selective splats. I find things get a little too unwieldy for my liking with the kitchen sink approach. Though I suppose it also depends on how well the game melds all the splats together.

Interestingly, for me, I’m often drawn to or driven from a game based more on the active player count. I prefer a smaller playerbase rather than one with 100 characters online at any given time. I find myself overwhelmed and struggling to find ways to fit in with larger groups. That might very well be a “me thing” though.

For those who have been following, progress continues, but it’s slow. I might try doing an invite-only soft/beta open. Start slow and see how things go.

What about a game that took some of these more “niche” themes and put them onto one game? Like, it would have “eras” that players could make characters for. Wild West, Piracy, and Victorian, for example. Could even make them all “horror” based with WoD style or something.

My first impulse is that this might just split the player base. My hope, however, is that it might inspire someone who came there to play in the wild west era to make a pirate or victorian age character.

@MisterBoring I’m not sure if it closed or not. I found it quite intimidating when I tried to apply there a while ago. It was a lot. And I didn’t necessarily mean that there are no games with those themes; I’m just shocked there aren’t more. Especially Game of Thrones. Lords and Ladies with an established world that people seem to love and enjoy? I’d think there’d be 3 or 4 of them, to be honest.

A Wild West(or even a Weird West) game is in the category of games I’m a little shocked don’t exist. I’m really shocked there aren’t more games set in the Old West(Wild or otherwise), Game of Thrones universe, or the age of piracy.

@MisterBoring said in Games we want, but will almost certainly never have:

• Scion 2nd Edition

I want to love this game, but I’ve read through the books 3 times, and I still don’t quite get how the system works. That said, I think it could be easily converted to Storypath Ultra(which has become my favorite iteration of Storypath).

• Zweihander

There’s an off-shoot of this game based on a fictionalized version of the U.S. Revolution I think that looks very neat. Yeah, “Flames of Freedom: Zweihander’s Gothic Horror Take on 1776.”

Honestly, this could be called “What games should I just get off my butt and make” and it’d be just as accurate. LOL

• Masters of the Universe
• A Transformers game based on the cartoon’s first season with a plot leading into the 1986 movie.
• A Star Trek game.
• A Game of Thrones game set in Lannisport in some obscure time in the past.

@TNP I’m sorry. I wish there was something I could say to make it better. Just know there are people out there that share your pain and are thinking good thoughts for you.