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How dangerous is VASpider?
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Not to derail the thread, but Data was still pretty unique. His brain was physical and positronic and completely mimicked the way humans operate, whereas the holograms still had adaptive programs with much more limited resources, at least if we’re to believe Voyager and the massive memory purge they had to do to the Doctor.
But that’s a story for a different thread.
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@STD said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
@Third-Eye said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
Might’ve been Gamma One? Which I think was the Anomaly successor. It wasn’t a game I stuck on but it is the only place I can say I played with VASpider. I was very idle so it was not an interesting experience, but I do remember they played an Engineering character.
It might’ve been Gamma One, then. I do remember VASpider played an Engineer.
I played Ivy, the new generation of Long-Term Medical Hologram that the Jupiter Station Holographic Research Institute swore would never, ever develop sapience, we promise totally.
Gamma One.
I vaguely remember Ivy, and I can tell you it wasn’t all because of Spider but a lot because Rapier didn’t like the way the character was played. Why he approved it when he didn’t like it is beyond me, but Rapier had Ideas about how things would go and he’d make your life miserable if you didn’t do things his way ask @Tributary .
As for Spider playing there, they played under the radar for a while and then it came to light and because Rapier refused to remove them from the game it broke his long term OOC/RL friendship with Starfleet (an ex of Spider), and in turn broke my friendship with him as well as I fed into what Rapier would say to justify choosing Spider over Starfleet.
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@Cobalt said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
@STD said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
@Third-Eye said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
Might’ve been Gamma One? Which I think was the Anomaly successor. It wasn’t a game I stuck on but it is the only place I can say I played with VASpider. I was very idle so it was not an interesting experience, but I do remember they played an Engineering character.
It might’ve been Gamma One, then. I do remember VASpider played an Engineer.
I played Ivy, the new generation of Long-Term Medical Hologram that the Jupiter Station Holographic Research Institute swore would never, ever develop sapience, we promise totally.
Gamma One.
I vaguely remember Ivy, and I can tell you it wasn’t all because of Spider but a lot because Rapier didn’t like the way the character was played. Why he approved it when he didn’t like it is beyond me, but Rapier had Ideas about how things would go and he’d make your life miserable if you didn’t do things his way ask @Tributary .
Huh.
That’s entirely new information for me. I had no idea that any of Staff had any problem with the character. I made sure to run it by staff before I even went for the charbit and ask if the idea would fly. Staff seemed quite helpful and enthusiastic about the character if my vague memories are in any way accurate.
Mind you, I think I mostly dealt with Starfleet, so maybe that was the reason?
Still, though, it baffles me that Rapier wanted people to be telepathic and just discern his desires without actually talking to anyone.
Do you happen to recall what it was about Ivy that Rapier didn’t like?
As for Spider playing there, they played under the radar for a while and then it came to light and because Rapier refused to remove them from the game it broke his long term OOC/RL friendship with Starfleet (an ex of Spider), and in turn broke my friendship with him as well as I fed into what Rapier would say to justify choosing Spider over Starfleet.
Interesting. I was completely oblivious to any of this.
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@STD said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
Do you happen to recall what it was about Ivy that Rapier didn’t like?
Doesn’t matter. Rapier had these ideas of how things were going to go, and when things didn’t follow his script, he got passive aggressive and sulky.
Boo-hoo, you torpedoed my favorite NPC, he sulked, and I was like, eh, your NPC knew the risks when you set up this plot this way, and it’s not my PC’s job to bail your NPC out of the choices he made, and why are we even having this conversation it’s a goddamn NPC and your habit of playing it like a PC doesn’t actually make me sympathetic.
And then later, he was like, describe for me how you’re going to fight this evil Bird of Prey jargon, jargon, jargon and I was like, uh, can I make a tactics roll? Because I had to look this shit up on the Star Trek wiki. My character has points in this; I don’t. And he was like, no! Describe how you’re going to attack these things! And I was like, fuck you, no, tell me the difficulty on the tactics roll, fuckhead. So he set the difficulty to pretty goddamn hard, and I hit the roll, and he sulked for the rest of the session.
He also got mad at me for doing statistics on his dumb dice system. Even with plenty of points in Tactics, the odds of hitting that target difficulty were 1 in 6 (about 17%). And when I published a couple of graphs that let people easily visualize where it wasn’t worth putting more XP into something, he ranted and sulked at me. I was like, dude, this is just math, and it’s not cheating to do math. Also, this isn’t school, so if I wanna let my friends copy my math homework, I’m gonna.
As for Spider playing there, they played under the radar for a while and then it came to light and because Rapier refused to remove them from the game it broke his long term OOC/RL friendship with Starfleet (an ex of Spider), and in turn broke my friendship with him as well as I fed into what Rapier would say to justify choosing Spider over Starfleet.
Interesting. I was completely oblivious to any of this.
Of course you were. Because it was all pretty indefensible. Abusive relationship on top of abusive relationship, essentially. Also, as I recall, Spider used his/their/her feminine? wiles to get Rapier to give Spider money he couldn’t afford to give away.
Rapier was delusional and hugely convinced of his own cleverness, and Spider played him like a children’s piano: easily and to the chagrin of all in hearing range.
Which once again comes back to why Spider is dangerous. Spider finds the weakest link and manipulates and uses it, making everyone else in range miserable and/or annoyed.
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@Tributary said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
And then later, he was like, describe for me how you’re going to fight this evil Bird of Prey jargon, jargon, jargon and I was like, uh, can I make a tactics roll? Because I had to look this shit up on the Star Trek wiki. My character has points in this; I don’t. And he was like, no! Describe how you’re going to attack these things! And I was like, fuck you, no, tell me the difficulty on the tactics roll, fuckhead. So he set the difficulty to pretty goddamn hard, and I hit the roll, and he sulked for the rest of the session.
Hit’em with the ol Picard razzle dazzle.
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Rapier is the guy I talked about in the predators of the community post. Starfleet wasn’t involved in Gamma One, you may be thinking of Halmar who was by and far way too much of a reasonable human being to ever deal with Rapier and Spider.
Anyway, I have a long back and forth history with Spider and I’d really rather not get into it but I would advise staying away.
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I think what it comes down to is this…
It’s very nice to give someone the benefit of the doubt and say ‘Well, maybe they changed.’ But it’s been what, 25 years? (Seriously? That long?) And they’ve proven over and over that they have no interest in changing their behavior. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me two dozen times, I’m an idiot.
Stay away. Stay far, far away.
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@TNP Except this isn’t about them in our world, it’s about them in the real world interacting with people who aren’t us.
Who cares what we have to say? Let the normal person doing real-world things form their own opinion.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
BE AN ADULT -
Didn’t VAS do like $40,000+ in damages to someone’s RL house and have some pretty big impacts along the same lines as their online crap?
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@Taika Surreality’s house I believe. Which Spider will say was not his/their fault. A while back I was in contact with Spider, benignly, and while the conversations were benign … A friend recently told me they did something obscenely awful to them (like this past year), and I’ve cut off all ties again by ghosting.
It isn’t my story to tell but how this person can handle what Spider did is beyond me. To add insult to injury Spider now asserts to having memory loss and claims to have completely forgotten what they did to that person.
I would not get involved in any way shape or form. The things they do to people does have RL ramifications.
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When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
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@Pavel Because it is always a good idea to tell someone to be cautious and create real fucking boundaries with someone who has a history of not respecting them…
Spiders online shit affected real life relationships of people who trusted them. Spiders RL shit affected online relationships of people who trusted them.
People like this need to come with a warning label. Period.
If people wish to proceed either way let them do so with eyes wide open.
ETA Note: I know it feels weird for people to be lingering on this sometimes years later. In most cases normal healthy adults who’ve matured and even some who have gone through therapy.
My rebuttal is this: How deep does someone have to scar another person for them to remember it let alone have it color how they interact with others years later?
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Is VA short for Virtual Adept? Is this a Mage: the Ascension – wait sorry nevermind.
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@Pavel said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
Who cares what we have to say? Let the normal person doing real-world things form their own opinion.
Nah. This isn’t it. If there is a predator known for hurting people in the real-world, and you know someone that predator is invested into as a potential next target… You don’t just stand back and possibly wait for someone just to be abused about it. They absolutely deserve to know the histories and the risks that are associated as fore-warned. We break toxic cycles any time and every time we can.
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I think it’s accurate though to say that the MU community and the members of it don’t have the most up to date examples of bad behavior from him, though. and so for any warnings to be realistic and not… intensely overblown to an outside observer, it needs to be qualified.
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I’m still gonna respectfully disagree. I don’t know Spider. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered Spider. But if that was ever to change… I would hope like hell anyone who has would warn me about it.
That doesn’t mean that Spider may not have changed. People can change, and a lot of them do so drastically. If Spider has changed, though, it’s probably only after a lot of work to self-improve and course correct. If it’s a change that actually is drastic enough to really count, part of that will include trying to atone and make amends. A change at that level usually comes with an understanding that a bad reputation and a lot of hurt and pain caused to others is still and always will be attached. A changed person knows that only time and actions will prove that change at all, and will be understanding that until then, wariness is a safety concern, and would be willing to put that kind of effort in.
If there isn’t a change… It only makes those warnings MORE important. If there is someone who once was an abuser talking to anyone at all, friends, enemies, strangers… I don’t care what kind of relationship. They still deserve the warnings to pay attention and to make good choices for themselves. We don’t owe abusers the chance to prove themselves changed or still-abusive ahead of time. It’s never a good idea to let them go running around sans warnings.
They don’t have to be pre-judged. People can give them as many new chances as they do or don’t wish to provide. But they shouldn’t have to give those chances unknowingly just to be blind-sided down the road with nothing better to be done about it after than regret not having said something earlier when there was the chance.
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Qualifying warnings (with things like “this was the case X number of years ago”) isn’t the same as not warning.
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Yeah, what roz said. Effective warnings talk about specific incidents and dangers, or if they aren’t first hand, are specific about how well you know the people in question and the details of the incident. “I’ve heard a number of stories from the MU community about this person violating boundaries and pulling manipulative tactics including x y z, but I haven’t closely followed the person since then” is a pretty decent summary of this thread, and a decent enough warning without ascribing their actions to the present.
Obviously there are plenty of people who think he can’t or hasn’t changed, or who were impacted enough by his behavior that they don’t intend to extend the benefit of the doubt. The personal feelings of someone you trust are often a pretty good warning - personally I’ve trusted friends on their vibe checks plenty. But they’re clear what info their warnings are based on, and that I think is important.
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I’m sorry I wasn’t clear, and was thus misunderstood.
Warn them, obviously. With the caveat of context and the fact the information could be as much as decades out of date. We can’t speak as if we know this person at all anymore, just their history. Treat it as that, then let them make up their own damn mind instead of telling them to stay away.
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@spiriferida If Spider has become self aware and has changed then they will understand why people have this reaction.
Recognizing trauma that one caused, accepting it and not redirecting blame a big step for former abusers.
